The Bitter with the Suite

Howdy y'all, and welcome to the new Music Talk page! The mods have come through big time for us here, and I'm just pleased as goddam PUNCH! Big thanks to all! So, let me start with a question for you MeFi Musicians (and non-musicians, should there actually be one or two that stop by here). It's a 2-part invention question, actually: What do you think, so far, has been the BEST thing about MeFi Music, and what, up to now, has been the WORST thing about it? And, as a coda, feel free to add your suggestions about how to make it better and better from here on out.
posted by flapjax at midnite (79 comments total)

I have to say I really like the music challenges as a listener. It kind of guarantees there are a dozen or so new interesting tracks every month (that I can feature on the podcast and enjoy).
posted by mathowie at 9:58 AM on July 2

For me the best thing has been seeing just how incredibly talented people on this site are, vocally and playing instruments. The worst part has been seeing it get neglected by a lot of the other folks on the site - but uh, I think that won't be as big a problem going forward. Long live the black!
posted by cashman at 10:02 AM on July 2

I regret not spending more time over here lately, mostly. I've been slacking horribly on my own recording, but I also haven't been making nearly as much time to come over and listen and comment as I would like.
posted by cortex at 10:24 AM on July 2

My favorite thing about Music is finding stuff I didn't know I would be interested in (ie jake's chiptunes, various/sundry country, etc), while looking for the further out stuff (noise/avant/experimental) I would prefer to be able to find and often can't. But it could be a function of not having looked very hard, because once I start looking I end up finding other things to listen to, as I mentioned.
posted by sleevener at 10:45 AM on July 2

Song for cortex.
I can do that since cortex is a bandmate and soon-to-be-former workmate and I've been putting off this kind of stuff for two years now. So today he shall feel the wrath of my bombast... or something. Yeah, I know, wrong band. I don't care about that right now either.

sleevener, that could be a problem with tagging. It could be that those tags need to be used more. It could also be that those genres just aren't explored enough (I haven't seen a lot of it around, anyway).

I like the overall atmosphere here--congenial and respectful. There have been a few times where someone becomes an ass, but they're not as prevelant as other portions of the site. I also think that with the addition of this talk subsite, music will be a lot more interesting as well. I like the challenges and I'm glad they're back, so yay for everyone who did one this time. If I come up with some bad points, I'll be sure to drop in again.
posted by sleepy pete at 10:58 AM on July 2

My favorite thing is being able to get feedback on my tunes, and, in turn, leave it for others. Also, it's a lovely haven nestled in MeFi where people are polite, nice, and thoughtful almost 100% of the time.
posted by ORthey at 11:00 AM on July 2

that could be a problem with tagging

It's a challenge that might be more subjective (if smaller in topical scope) than the general back-tagging marathon we had for askme and mefi last year; and I wonder if we might not want to try to do some collaborative tagging/organization pass on Music at some point in the future. It'd certainly be nice to leverage community eyeballs to make interesting stuff more findable (or findable in more ways) in here.
posted by cortex at 11:07 AM on July 2

That might be a good idea.
posted by sleepy pete at 11:09 AM on July 2

I wonder if we might not want to try to do some collaborative tagging/organization pass on Music at some point in the future.

I would lend my eyeballs and earholes to such an endeavor.
posted by sleevener at 11:12 AM on July 2

Best thing: the music itself. I have an album's worth of music I've downloaded from here. You guys are awesome.

Worst thing: I suppose the lack of attention. Like Projects and Jobs, I feel like Music hasn't quite hit the MeFi mainstream yet. With new features like this, though, I'd say it's on its way.

I feel bad because I want to contribute a lot more than I actually do; since I have some decent recording equipment now and a bit more talent, I feel like I should do something more substantial than dumb jokey lofi stuff. Of course, that requires more of a time commitment, and I'm having trouble making those lately...

In any case, I think this talk page is a good sign. For folks like me, there's another low-impact way to interact with MeFi Music (in addition to comments and playlists) that doesn't require recording a new song.
posted by danb at 11:21 AM on July 2

My favorite thing about MeFi Music is that it presents a lot of music at a stage that is really hard to find elsewhere. I'll elaborate: most of the music posted here has a level of intimacy that you will never find in a finished record that has gone through a professional producer, mix, mastering, and several sign-offs from record company execs. The few recordings I had access to that shared that quality before Mefi Music, where home recordings from my friends, and with the site I've been exposed to an explosive source of that sort of music.

As for the bad: the fact that sometimes in the rush of recording something I would end up posting a song only to realize (a couple of days later, after the ears had taken a rest from the song) that something in the song was out of tune beyond charming, and not being able to replace it.

I'm really thrilled with this new section. It opens a myriad of possibilities that had no reason to be kept from the site, and I'm sure many good things will come from it.
posted by micayetoca at 11:34 AM on July 2

I haven't found one bad thing about MeMu yet; this only makes it better. (I was just thinking last night about how a Talk section would be wonderful.)

I am still itching for a MeMuGigs doohickey, although I have a feeling it'd be [the sound of crickets] for a while. (My next gig is at the end of October, as far as I know.) Would the MeMu talk section suffice in its stead?
posted by not_on_display at 11:45 AM on July 2

I am still itching for a MeMuGigs doohickey

Can this doohickey be used in that regard? Or is that not how it was envisioned? I'm really wondering, not being snarky because it would be interesting to check on what dates people were playing in the area.
posted by sleepy pete at 11:54 AM on July 2

My favourite thing is also my least favourite. The degree of politeness and thoughtful tolerance is really high - far higher than on the rest of the site. Sometimes i wish that people would bust loose a bit more, but i understand that we're all fragile little egos, really. I'd be glad of a bit more constructive criticism sometimes rather than OMFG-CHOOON or, worse, awkward silences. (This, you'll notice from the man who only ever posts 'awesome' to any given thread.)
Also, we need more women posting songs!
posted by Jofus at 12:00 PM on July 2

We sort of talked about the idea of Music Talk vs. Gigfilter. General takeaway was that it's not really what this place is meant for—this isn't the Gigfilter/MefiEvents thing we'd like to build at some point and it shouldn't probably be used that way.

One thought I had when we were hashing that out is that a monthly open Gigs thread or something might be worth experimenting with: let people pop in with an "I'm playing here on the 4th and here on the 17th" comment, try and size up the actual volume of gig notifications we'd be dealing with in the long run, see how that feels.

But as far as individual "Here is my gig(s) coming up" Music Talk posts, no, I don't think we want to go there at this point.
posted by cortex at 12:00 PM on July 2

Best thing: the atmosphere building up around MeFi Music is incredibly positive, blissfully free of the cynicism and snark that tends to dominate the my-favorite-band posts on the Blue.

Worst thing: as others have said, the lack of attention from the "MeFi mainstream." Or is this a actually a good thing? I'm not sure.

The MeFiMuCover challenge was most entertaining. I hope it comes back periodically in the future!
posted by Galvatron at 12:13 PM on July 2

I wonder if we might not want to try to do some collaborative tagging/organization pass on Music at some point in the future

You can count me in for that.
posted by micayetoca at 12:18 PM on July 2

I haven't been here too long, but this place has been really great for a newbie like me. I've learned a lot of terms and a few tricks, and people have always been constructive. The MuFi covers this past month were really great for the community, and I would suggest having the cover challenge as a constant, month to month.

I hope more people start coming to the music page.
posted by Corduroy at 12:30 PM on July 2

What draws me as a non-musician is the quality and diversity of music that gets uploaded--you just can't get that anywhere else. I've actually bought a few albums from members personal sites and iTunes and it's nice to know I'm supporting real people.

I would really like to see the most playlisted/favorited sections improve by showing more recent songs. For example, #1 on "the most playlisted tracks (in the past 7 days)" list is "Making Me Nervous" by Frenetic. And though this is a great track, it's over 2 years old. So I'd like to see more recent submissions get that attention--which probably depends upon more people making their way over to this part of the site.
posted by sambosambo at 1:20 PM on July 2

It's the process observation that brings me to MeFi Music. This place is a bit of a workshop and I get to see people's songwriting and recording processes. I've been way too chicken to post anything of my own yet but I am hoping a more interactive design will open things up for me and help me get some tips in creating things worth sharing.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 1:32 PM on July 2

I will Nth that I think mefi music is a great addition. I'd love to see integration with the main page, like having the current tracks be playable on a standalone player while browsing/posting/ranting. As I often forget that music.metafilter.com is here, and I've uploaded several tracks to it..
posted by dobie at 1:40 PM on July 2

This place is a bit of a workshop and I get to see people's songwriting and recording processes.

Absolutely, man. And I'm hoping that Talk will indeed get more of this stuff out and available.

gnfti started a blog a good while back that was intended to be sort of a collaborative recordist workshop/howto kind of thing, and to which to my shame I totally failed ever to contribute. One of my desires for this part of the site is that it may make that idea more readily available and realizable to folks already on mefi, Music regulars or otherwise.
posted by cortex at 1:47 PM on July 2

I, too, am quite fond of the fact that the folks in the music section are all very polite, helpful, and supportive. I'm not quite sure if there's anything I dislike about it ... maybe it could get more love from the rest of MeFi, but that's about it.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 1:47 PM on July 2

When is there going to be another compilation album? It's been two years, already!
posted by interrobang at 2:31 PM on July 2

If I had to give a complaint, it would be about those who only post their songs and never comment. Or if they do comment, it is only on their songs.
posted by Corduroy at 2:32 PM on July 2

I just came in here to say it is awesome!

cortex: "gnfti started a blog a good while back that was intended to be sort of a collaborative recordist workshop/howto kind of thing [...] One of my desires for this part of the site is that it may make that idea more readily available and realizable"

It's true, and I'd like to echo that sentiment.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 2:41 PM on July 2

When is there going to be another compilation album? It's been two years, already!

Man, I still need to do a wrap-up post on the first one.
posted by cortex at 2:55 PM on July 2

Did someone say workshop? That's my favorite thing here. I can't imagine that the teaching/learning/sharing thing that goes on here happens anywhere else in quite the same way. It really is our own little microcosm and just about everyone who participates does so in ways that nurtures the thing.

Bad things? I really wish I had more time to listen to every single song and give thoughtful comments. Another thing, I once had a mix up with the meaning of "FTW" and mistakenly implied that someones song really sucked. Sorry about that.


MeFiMusic RULES!!!1!! FTW!!!!!!!
posted by snsranch at 3:41 PM on July 2

cashman writes: The worst part has been seeing it get neglected by a lot of the other folks on the site...

Mulp writes: ...maybe it could get more love from the rest of MeFi...

Yeah, that'd be nice. The other day I made an FPP to the blue: main link was a YouTube clip of a freight train passing by. That clip had been uploaded to YT April 5, 2008, and at the time of my posting to the blue, its view count was 529. Ten hours later, that figure had leapt up to 1580. Right now, 2 days after that FPP, it stands at 3172. That MeFi post resulted in more than 2500 view for the clip. Not bad...

By contrast, the last song I posted to MeFi Music has a current play count of... 21. Now, I know this ain't the blue (although the blues are in evidence from time to time), but I'd like to see the day when Music posts get even, say, 10% of the active interest that posts to the blue get.

But, I'm keeping a positive attitude about that, and I hope cashman is predicting correctly when he says: I think that won't be as big a problem going forward.

Cause there's plenty of fine music here, and no reason why more MeFiers shouldn't be checking it out and enjoying it.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:43 PM on July 2

The worst thing about MeFi Music is the gut-wrenching inadequacy I feel whenever I listen to the music being made.
posted by lekvar at 4:44 PM on July 2

The worst thing about Music is that this section of MeFi is blocked at work. No music download sites allowed, sez Websense.

I've been busy with two different bands these days and haven't had much time for solo recording. But now that the main band's practice spot is all tricked-out with recording equipment (for tracking anything we do in rehearsals) I think I'll be able to sequester myself in there for a while to record some original songs that have been languishing unrecorded for too long.
posted by emelenjr at 5:21 PM on July 2

I love MeMu cos it's the only place I've felt safe to share stuff as a hobbyist. I like to listen to tracks here for exactly the same reason as micateyoca, I love the low-fi aspect, it feels like campfire sharing, story telling, the nu-digital-folk aspect sort of thing.

I get a bit reticent about commenting because I only ever seem to spout dorky fanstuff along the lines of 'cool!', 'this is great!' etc. Often I'm at a bit of a loss for what to actually say, but I do listen and it's all inspiring.
posted by freya_lamb at 5:58 PM on July 2

If I had to give a complaint, it would be about those who only post their songs and never comment. Or if they do comment, it is only on their songs.

Yes, this. This is one of the things I hate the most. Thanks, Corduroy. You cannot have a healthy community when someone only thinks of themselves and give nothing back, even if it's just "Nice song," or putting a song on a playlist or favoriting it. I like dorky comments, freya_lamb (being a fairly dorky person myself).

As far as the inclusion of more of mefi, that would be great, but have you read a music thread on the blue? I've decided to just stay out of them because, for the most part, they're absolutely horrible. Music tends to bring about an emotional response from people, for some that means music A is better than music B because it's more authentic/they heard it when in high school/can't have instrument X and so on and so on (and I'm guilty of it, so I'm not excusing myself). So, apply that to whatever song you just posted and you'll get... a lot less of a workshop feeling.

It would be nice for more people to pay attention, but I'm not sure that the attention would be as wonderful as it is now. I know, I'm a skeptical bastard, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't have some negative ramifications.

And please, everyone, don't feel inadequate about posting anything here. I know it's hard not to do it, but don't do it. Enough people here are exactly like you (e.g., not "real" musicians) so please please please don't feel scared. I've read that so many times that it's honestly kind of depressing me (and read the exact same response to that statement, so I'm not the only one who feels that way). Seriously, here are three guitar chords and some free samples and samplers, now go write something (just, if you can, please don't let it sound like the Ramones, we don't really need another one). Computers come with microphones! (They still do, right?).

/DIY rant
posted by sleepy pete at 6:21 PM on July 2

Flapjax, on the play issue: I think it has a lot to do with the organization of the site. It's been a lot busier of late and songs fly off the front page awfully fast. I personally think a longer period between posting rights -- say once a week, like AskMe -- would be a lot better. It might make things quieter but it would give songs more time to garner listeners and comments. Songs that are sidebarred because they've been in a podcast do a lot better, not just because they've been heard there but because they stay in the same place for so long.

If I had to give a complaint, it would be about those who only post their songs and never comment. Or if they do comment, it is only on their songs.

I agree, and see also the increasingly phenomenon of people with no other connection to the site whatsoever post music. That is perfectly ok if music is their main interest, but when they've posted absolutely no comments or just generally seem uninterested in anything but themselves they are doing what I've seen happen to every music community site I've ever been part of, which is turning it into simply an avenue for self-promotion. I don't know how you fix that; my personal choice at this point, and maybe it's an unfair one, is to avoid people doing drive-bys like that altogether.

That is why I rather like that it's small and a bit obscure because I just don't want to see it become yet another GarageBand.com or what have you (apologies if you like GarageBand, but it really made me cynical about "music communities" in general). I like that hobbyists feel so comfortable here. There are a lot of people doing wonderful things and getting support for it and though I haven't been able to comment here much lately (or elsewhere on the site) for personal reasons I've loved getting to be part of it -- the supportive "workshop" model really works for me.

(On preview: heh, sleepy pete's in the living room and I'm in the bedroom but we're both writing variations on the same thing, except for the DIY thing which I also wanted to say but couldn't figure out how.)
posted by melissa may at 6:33 PM on July 2

Ack, sorry for the poor editing, but I think (hope) my meaning's still clear.
posted by melissa may at 6:36 PM on July 2

Oh! And damn it, I forgot: I've made a point of sending links songs I really like to other people (both on and off Mefi) I thought might like them too, and I think that's an easy-peasy way to be supportive. It's also something you could do on a personal blog -- I've meant to do that in the past, even if it's just a "listening to X" kind of thing.
posted by melissa may at 6:42 PM on July 2

(feel the wrath of a two computer household's bombast! this bombast has made us tired. sorry, i've had mark e smith on the brain the last couple of days. i wish he would get off my head because his ass smells.)
posted by sleepy pete at 6:48 PM on July 2

Songs that are sidebarred because they've been in a podcast do a lot better, not just because they've been heard there but because they stay in the same place for so long.

Very good point, melissa may. I think you're absolutely right. I'd be reticent to suggest a once-per-week limit on song postings, though, mainly for one reason: the MeFiMu Challenge. Especially as a month's deadline encroaches, I'd hate to see someone not be able to make their Challenge tune in "on time" because they'd posted another song a few days beforehand.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:53 PM on July 2 [1 favorite]

True flapjax, but if it's clearly spelled out that there's a once a week posting limit people can plan accordingly, as they do in AskMe.
posted by melissa may at 6:59 PM on July 2

I don't know if I'm for or against a once a week posting rule, but I'm definitely intrigued. I'd like to hear more discussion on it.
posted by Corduroy at 7:12 PM on July 2

True again, melissa may.

What might be the consensus on this, I wonder? Do y'all think a once a week posting limit would be a good thing for MeFi Music?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:13 PM on July 2

Do y'all think a once a week posting limit would be a good thing for MeFi Music?

I guess I just don't see the point. More activity is always better, I think.

(Also, we'd miss out on "special projects" like Astro Zombie's "Old Songs.")

True flapjax, but if it's clearly spelled out that there's a once a week posting limit people can plan accordingly, as they do in AskMe.

What if I'm working on two challenge songs at the same time and I get them both done at the end of the month?

If there's going to be some sort of limitation on posting sings, I'd rather see something like "1 song post per 5 comments on other people's songs" instead.

Because what makes me sad is to see a whole row of songs with no comments at all -- it's no fun to make yourself vulnerable and put up a song and get no response at all.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 7:51 PM on July 2

I agree with no limits on posts. Sometimes you just post something slightly goofy and off-the-cuff and those would be lost if every post had to be really considered and MyReallyImportantSong-ish.
It's a totally different animal than AskMe and I like being able to post two days in a row or 6 months apart.

I'd rather see something like "1 song post per 5 comments on other people's songs" instead.
This is my nightmare. That is exactly the model on Garageband and it's terrible because the comments become meaningless and most of them are from YouTube-ish morons.

I don't think it's productive to force people to comment. We've got a play count, favourites, playlists and comments, I think that's enough.
posted by chococat at 8:14 PM on July 2

This is my nightmare. That is exactly the model on Garageband and it's terrible because the comments become meaningless and most of them are from YouTube-ish morons.

Hm, maybe. I don't guess I'd want to actually have this coded; I'm more for encouragement than enforcement.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 8:41 PM on July 2

I think a limit on music posts, at least at this point, is a solution in search of a problem. There have typically been five or fewer posts a day recently; If MeFi Music does one day become "popular," then it might be something to consider, but with that frequency I don't think any restrictions are necessary.
posted by danb at 8:53 PM on July 2

This is definately my new my new Mefi hang out.
posted by potch at 9:28 PM on July 2 [1 favorite]

I don't think it's productive to force people to comment.

True dat Choco. I don't comment a whole lot but that doesn't mean I'm not listening to songs, if I have something to say than I'll say it but don't force me. I love Mefi Music for the sake that it's very hate free, unlike most the internet, but at the same time we are so anti criticisim that sometimes the comments seem not genuine. I'm not saying lets all bash eachother, that'd be nasty (I got a few not so nice comments on one song but that's because the song sucked and people thought I was being racist). I don't really know what my point is but I'll try to start commenting more I guess....
posted by BrnP84 at 10:06 PM on July 2

My favourite thing is also my least favourite. The degree of politeness and thoughtful tolerance is really high - far higher than on the rest of the site. Sometimes i wish that people would bust loose a bit more, but i understand that we're all fragile little egos, really. I'd be glad of a bit more constructive criticism sometimes rather than OMFG-CHOOON or, worse, awkward silences.

Uh, I didn't see that, I guess that's what I was trying to say
posted by BrnP84 at 10:08 PM on July 2

Wish I'd caught this further upthread, when the discussion was more general, since I don't have particular suggestions on posting limits, etc.. But that said, whee! I'm glad to have a place to pledge my love for MeFiMu.

It's appropriate that I came upon this new section today. As we speak, I'm making final playlist decisions on a 2-CD compilation I'm making of tunes I've found here that I love the most. The theme of the compilation is "a musical autobiography in chronological order for the past nine months," but not according to when I heard the songs but rather according to what times the music suits best. 255 songs I listened to and thought were good enough to download to my hard drive over the past several months have been weeded down to about 105 contenders, which then got weeded down to a lean and mean 32, which I then sorted into 2 discs of 16. (I had a few also-rans that broke my heart to cut, so I may be making another disc shortly...) And this is just from listening to about a year and a half of postings (yes, I'm working my way back in time and listening through what predates my joining...)

Oh, and I could only use one song per artist. But I figured that's okay, because I'll be purchasing albums from a few of you whose stuff I really like in the near future. I've got a list, and I don't want to freeload forever.

If this has a point, then, it's to say that the numbers listed in-thread for play counts do NOT represent total times people have listened to your stuff because of this website. (Perhaps number of downloads should be given a specific number as well? Or should we stop charting this stuff numerically altogether?) While Flapjax is down on having only 21 listens listed for his most recent song, he should be cheered to know that, according to my iTunes play-counts of all his tunes I've personally downloaded, I've listened to his songs (appropriately!) 21 times just by myself. And that's just for the last couple months, and doesn't count all the listens before I had a hard drive crash and had to redownload from scratch (thank god for online MetaFilter playlists...) And since that crash, seriously, folks, ya'll are crowding my iTunes top 25.

So thank you, musicians. I'm sorry I couldn't write a comment on every one of the 255 songs I've downloaded from you so far. Sorry I'm listening to some of your songs but won't be able to buy an album from all of you. Maybe, if my guitar wasn't on the other side of the continent just now, I'd write you a song to say thanks. Maybe someday, but until then, you'll just have to trust me that the non-song-posters appreciate this place too.

Oh, MeFiMu. I've had you stuck in my head for months.
posted by roombythelake at 10:17 PM on July 2

I don't think it's productive to force people to comment.

Yup. Folks have said it well, but from an administrative perspective I just want to kind of officially get behind that. I'd love to find ways to encourage people to get engaged in commentary, because more real talk about song posts is a great thing—and I'm hoping that that's one of the things that the Talk section might help make happen—but the last thing I want is the GarageBand.com effect. It sucks.

Think of the three-comments-before-spamming thing we see on the blue, and then imagine that as a designed-in feature. Ew.

Wish I'd caught this further upthread, when the discussion was more general

Don't sweat it. I imagine this will be a big and wandery Hello World thread all in all. And of course, folks can always make a new post if there's a Music-y topic you want to get going on.
posted by cortex at 10:37 PM on July 2

Wish I'd caught this further upthread, when the discussion was more general

Ditto what cortex said about that. And that was a lovely comment, roombythelake. Not just cause you singled me out in it, but just cause, hell, that's gotta make everybody feel good about this whole thing. You, brother (or sister, as the case may be), are an exemplary lurker!

And actually, with 14 comments at MeFiMu, scratch that, you ain't exactly a lurker!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 11:15 PM on July 2

I imagine this will be a big and wandery Hello World thread all in all.

Damn skippy. This is the part of the thread that's the equivalent of the fourth hour of band practice. Everyone's half drunk, half tired, you just got finished telling the story of the time you opened for Power Station, same as you do every week, the fiddle player's got a banjo, the guitarist is on the drums and someone, for some reason, says "Remember that song? First track, side two of "Sweetheart of the Rodeo"?

That, my friends, is when the magic happens.

HELLO WORLD!
posted by Jofus at 6:07 AM on July 3 [1 favorite]

(And mark me down as a one-song-per-week supporter.)

The man with three songs in two years...
posted by Jofus at 6:08 AM on July 3

How about a one-song-per-week minimum?
posted by danb at 7:15 AM on July 3 [3 favorites]

And hopefully one day we will have a MeMuPalooza somewhere. Maybe at the 10th anniversary party... I would love to see a bunch of live performances from a lot of you folks.
posted by ORthey at 10:32 AM on July 3

I am at MeMu daily and I rarely comment, but it's been just about my favorite site on the web since it opened. I don't think there should be posting limits, and I love the campfire style sharing and riffing that goes on. I didn't even post anything for the cover challenge but I spent a month learning one of ORThey's tunes and totally digging on the challenge responses. My French accent has improved, I now know I can pick out chord structures on the guitar, and my teeth are whiter. Thanks MeMu!
posted by annathea at 12:48 PM on July 3

I didn't even post anything for the cover challenge but I spent a month learning one of ORThey's tunes

Tell me about it! I was all set to get into the cover thing (as I was one of the people who repeatedly requested it for a challenge), and then Life got in the way and I didn't get a chance to record anything. I still might, though, challenge be damned.
posted by danb at 1:50 PM on July 3

I still might, though, challenge be damned.

Here's hoping you post that cover, danb, and many more after that! Long live the mefimucover tag!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:15 PM on July 3

Wow, this is new.

the BEST thing: new music to listen to everyday
the WORST thing: not sure if there's a 'worst' thing, maybe the elusive songs that you'd like more context into their origins/meaning?
posted by ageispolis at 3:44 PM on July 3

I heretofore avow to listen more, comment more, post more and help build this mother up.

WHO IS WITH ME?!?
posted by dobie at 7:01 PM on July 3

I am with you, dobie. I am thirty-one flavors of with you.
posted by cortex at 7:20 PM on July 3

I am with you as well, dobie. In fact, to kick things off, I hereby pledge to comment on every music post in the month of July.

What? You think I can't do it? You think there'll too many songs to listen to? Go make me a liar, then!
posted by danb at 8:26 PM on July 3 [4 favorites]

One thing I wish happened here more often is direct, honest and detailed feedback. I absolutely enjoy hearing that someone liked my song, and certainly I understand not wanting to go negative, but I've grown accustomed to getting really strong -- and really useful -- negative feedback from submitting to SongFight!. I'd love to get that level of feedback from a totally different set of musicians and listeners.
posted by davejay at 11:59 PM on July 3 [1 favorite]

davejay, your songs suck because they don't have enough tuba.

Kidding, they have just enough tuba. I think the not going negative/constructive thing is because it's a sight of mixed users, some are artists/recorders(ists?) others are visiting from the blue, still others are lurking...so it's a totally different fish from Songfight.
posted by chococat at 12:15 AM on July 4

chococat has a good point there. One reason I always feel so inarticulate is that I feel I have no authority to comment beyond I like it or I don't. By authority I mean, no kind of expertise from which to wax lyrical. Because songs here aren't posted by the 'I'm aiming for number one in the hit parade' crowd it's hard to know what exactly to critique - or even if posters are asking for criticism.

Maybe we need a new tag by which posters can invite specific feedback, i.e. quality of production, lyrical content, vox/kazoo/frog chorus whatever?
posted by freya_lamb at 11:05 AM on July 4 [1 favorite]

As someone who has moved six times in five years, it has been difficult for me to gather up people to play with. This site has been a great space to put stuff out there without having to polish it too much. It gives me a goal that helps me to produce these little weekend projects that help me work on songwriting and mixing. It's very satisfying for that.

One thing that has been frustrating a couple times is when only a few people listen or comment on a tune that you worked hard producing, and you can't tell whether it is due to the ebb and flow of visitors to the site, its title and what you wrote about it, or that people listened to under a minute of it and thought it wasn't worth their time. I agree that sometimes they just slip off of the front page before enough people noticed, but I'm skeptical that a song a week is a good solution.

I agree with freya_lamb's comment immediately above that it is hard to know what people's intentions are in posting, and as a result, it is difficult to gauge whether or not to give constructive criticism. I feel like I have to do a better job of differentiating the tunes where I mixed and mixed and mixed and still ended up unsatisfied and wonder what I could have done differently, from the ditties that I whipped up and posted, and don't really care if I'm out of tune. If there is a way for everyone to stay attuned to what the posters wants, and if they beg for a critique, definitely give it to them.

Anyway, this site has brought me out of musical hibernation. I really like it.
posted by umbú at 11:34 AM on July 4

Well, you don't need to wax lyrical. You can just wax plain-spoken—if there's something you don't like, just try to figure out if you can articulate what it is that you don't like and why. Constructive criticism doesn't require authority, and you can always provide your own context for your criticism instead of worrying about what context they were posting in.

As long as folks aren't jerks, criticism should be fine. I can't promise that no one will ever react badly to it, but that's human nature, and learning to accept criticism is an essential part of artistic growth.
posted by cortex at 11:35 AM on July 4

Except that sometimes you don't want criticism. Maybe it has to be "everything is fair game," I guess...but sometimes you just want to share something with everyone 'cause you're proud of it or really like how it sounds.
Perhaps commenters can take a cue from the wording of the post and gauge if the poster is actually soliciting advice? I try not to say "I would have done this" (unless it has been requested by the poster) because I think it makes me sound a bit pompous. Maybe I have done that, I can't recall, but I don't think so.
I guess it's a slippery slope or a giant fuzzy line between opinion and advice. Of course it's great that people have an opinion, it would suck if they didn't. But "the bass needs to kick in here instead" and "I'd cut out the second chorus and lose the harmony" comments are a drag when your post is framed as a track you've been working on forever and just finished mastering and it's on your CD or whatever. Dumb example, and not that it's happened to me, but you know what I mean?

Or maybe it's just tough shit, post a song and deal with the reaction, I don't know. Just thinking out loud here.
posted by chococat at 8:32 PM on July 4

You mentioned being sort of ticked off (for lack of a better way of saying it) by "unsolicited advice" somewhere else, I think in a comment for someone else's song. I remember it because it made me think "oops, gotta be more careful with that in the future".

Me personally, if I've left comments like that in the past, it's because it's one of the few ways I find to give feedback to the person who posted the song. And by feedback I don't mean "giving my valuable advice to help the poor poster make his song better", but rather as a way of saying "hey, I was here, I listened to your song, it caught my attention".

Comments can be difficult. I often find myself saying "cool, post more", and I get tired of repeating it over and over, but I feel that it is better to leave a very simple line like that than not leaving a comment at all. With other songs, leaving a comment like "I would have definitely use a flugelhorn instead of that harmonium" might definitely not go well with the person who posted the song after spending a long time working on it, but, again, I do it because I've thought the poster would rather get comments like that than not getting comments at all. Maybe (quite possibly) I'm wrong.

You are definitely on to something when you say we should take cue from the wording of the post. That, and we could also take advantage of this Talk subsection to state what kind of reaction we would rather get, because before reading what you wrote I had no clue that it could be upsetting for other people.
posted by micayetoca at 9:21 PM on July 4

Perhaps commenters can take a cue from the wording of the post and gauge if the poster is actually soliciting advice?

This is generally what I do. If someone posts a track without asking for critique, I won't usually go after them (although I'll sometimes say something like, "a sax solo would sound great with this!"). I do always look for specific things that I like ("that unexpected chord change at 1:40 was really nice!"), and it's pretty rare to find a song that doesn't have something about it that's neat.

If they are looking for a critique, though, I'll go ahead and dig in. (Although it's still pointless to say things like, "I hate this style of music!" or "man, you sure can't sing!")

Personally, by the time I post a song here, I am pretty much done with it and moving on. I don't post unfinished stuff because the idea of it hanging around forever half-baked makes me feel a little ill. (Which isn't to say that I would never go back to it -- but it's generally not my intention.)

On preview: Micayetoca, you once said of one of my songs that you would have replaced the keyboard organ with a chorus of vocals. I thought that idea was really interesting, and not something that I would have heard for that song. I didn't take it as a "hey, man, you did it wrong" deal -- just a totally different way of looking at the same song. Personally, I think that sort of thing is pretty cool; I really enjoy feedback that shows that someone actually thought about a song I made -- it's quite flattering, and something I can't get from most of my friends.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 9:35 PM on July 4

Perfect wording: something I can't get from most of my friends. I'd even make that the slogan for the Music Talk section.

I think I've mentioned one hundred thousand trillion times that I moved to a country where I've had difficulty meeting other musicians. This site was a lifesaver in that sense, being exposed to many musicians and their approaches to writing and recording, from such a fresh perspective (a web forum where people interact, as opposed to a CD that you only listen at home).
posted by micayetoca at 10:02 PM on July 4

You mentioned being sort of ticked off (for lack of a better way of saying it) by "unsolicited advice" somewhere else, I think in a comment for someone else's song. I remember it because it made me think "oops, gotta be more careful with that in the future".

I remember having that exact same reaction, micayetoca. I do worry that sometimes I post advice in an unearned pompous manner. I definitely don't mean to, if anyone who has been a victim is reading this. I just sort of feel like it's their for our consumption and our reaction. But chococat is right; you have to figure out from the way the person presents the song what they're looking for.

The fine line with this is just totally passing over songs that don't make you jump with glee, worried that your comment might not go over well.
posted by Corduroy at 10:12 PM on July 4

...you have to figure out from the way the person presents the song what they're looking for.

Well, that can be difficult and/or impossible to discern, really. I'd just hope that folks would throw caution, if not to the wind, then at least to the gentle breeze, and offer whatever criticism or suggestions that come to mind. I mean, speaking for myself, I'm 51 years old, I've been a semi-professional (that is half or more my income from music) for the past 30 years or so, and I'm still interested to hear criticism from folks here or wherever. Pointers, opinions, whatever, as long as they're well-considered and reasonably well thought-out. I offer some fairly specific opinions and criticisms from time to time here at MeFiMu, and I'm happy when folks do the same for my song posts.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:35 AM on July 5

The tag idea freya_lamb mentioned above sounds like it could work. I know it sounds like being a bit too specific, but it could just eliminate any doubts there might be.

Perhaps things like this can be mentioned in the Post a new song page. We could have a reminder there that people should use the mefimucover tag if they are covering a song by another mefite, and some sort of feedback tag if they want people to give advice, rather than just listening to the song. -This would have the added bonus of making flapjax's life easier, as he has been reminding/informing every person every time about the mefimucover tag.
posted by micayetoca at 4:32 PM on July 6

davejay, your songs suck because they don't have enough tuba.

Heh, I've received feedback that my song was good, except for the ukulele and my voice -- and the recording was made entirely of me accompanying myself on the ukulele. Gee, thanks!

But your point is valid; I just happen to be a glutton for punishment, I guess. I made the decision to put my stuff out there and accept the bad with the good, and every time I get a big pile of bad I feel good about myself if I can roll with it and release something new that's an improvement.

If I were going to be introspective, I'd probably decide that it had something to do with my life being relatively free of drama, and feeling the need to have something to fight against and be pained by so that I write better stuff, or something. Then I'd realize I only write happy songs. Ah well.

Oh, and my songs do have just enough tuba, which is to say none. Can't play one worth a damn.
posted by davejay at 10:05 PM on July 7

Mica, I agree, tagging your song "feedback" or "feedbackappreciated" or "critiqueme" would be a good way to indicate that negative feedback is appreciated when sincere...assuming folks caught on to it.
posted by davejay at 10:06 PM on July 7

If I had to give a complaint, it would be about those who only post their songs and never comment. Or if they do comment, it is only on their songs.

I'm a little guilty of this, and I feel bad about it (and that bad feeling then shame-spirals into keeping me away further). Part of it's a legacy of formerly working at a place that really, really policed bandwidth usage-- there was kind of a high barrier just to use MeFi Music, and without casual usage I just sort of got into the habit of not coming around much unless I had something to post. Which, like I said, led to the feelbad rainbow shame spiral (with Bonus Shame because I've always appreciated the hell out of the feedback I've gotten here).

So I'll try to be a better MeFi Music citizen going forward.
posted by COBRA! at 9:41 AM on July 8

*applauds COBRA!*
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:42 PM on July 8

Like the variety, but don't like the wrenching mood shifts when playing the podcast straight up. There was a link on the blue to someone's blog where MeMu songs were all categorized. Not saying it should be changed, but maybe post that link on the site? Am I the only one who finds the top page navigation awkward? The 'post a song' link is tiny and way down at the bottom, for one.

I had no idea how starved people are for comments and feedback and will certainly add some. There are so many songs that just blew me away! I think solid "strengths and weaknesses" crit' is the way to go - nothing is above criticism, and perhaps a "nofeedback" tag would make more sense than a "feedback" tag (risk of people not noticing, I suppose).

A weakness - I still think there should be at least a link to Creative Commons license page, and maybe a link to a statement about copyrights on submitted work? We've all heard stories of rip-offs, so it's strange there's no statement to be found on the site. BTW - I'd love to hear covers and remixes of my songs, personally.

I'm all for freedom of expression, but I'm no big fan of F-bombs in songs. After all, the whole point is to find a unique way of saying something. I'd hope for self-censorship - or not, as the case may be (there have been some funny crude songs here, too).

I don't see anything wrong with posting rough demos just to get the idea of the song across, especially for music challenges since that has a deadline. Go for it!
posted by AppleSeed at 8:45 PM on August 19