Artists' control of their output at Mefi Music

Forgive the double post, but I want to be sure that as many musicians as possible see the MetaTalk thread I just started. Also, with this post to Music Talk, I'm only knocking the "won't upload" thread off the front page here, so I think it's a pardonable sin. Here's the MeTa thread. I hope all of you with an opinion on my proposal will take the time to express it over there at MetaTalk. Thanks.
posted by flapjax at midnite (35 comments total)

Reading through the comments there...all very interesting and compelling.
posted by snsranch at 10:22 AM on June 22

Yeah, it got a little hairy there for a minute between me and davejay, though. Sorry for my part in that derail.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:46 PM on June 22

I wouldn't worry about it flapjax - obviously a sensitive subject! But I thought your suggestion was a good 'un. I've been wondering lately whether there's simply too much material uploaded and that logjams occur as a result. I've put a couple of tracks up lately that got zip comment - maybe because they were no good (!) or maybe because there's just so much stuff and they got lost in the crowd. So it would be good to be able to remove them and maybe upload again during a quieter period to see if more comments are forthcoming. The comments are really important to me (and everyone I guess) - if you work alone it's the only way you get any kind of objective feedback - good or otherwise.
posted by MajorDundee at 1:48 AM on June 23

So it would be good to be able to remove them and maybe upload again during a quieter period to see if more comments are forthcoming.

I can totally empathize with the didn't-get-substantial-feedback feeling, that's probably something folks here find pretty much universally frustrating when it happens to them (and something I would fix with a shake of a magic wand if I had one).

But this particular pump-and-dump notion is pretty much exactly the sort of thing I wouldn't be okay with as a reason to have a delete button. Not knocking the instinct, Major, just not really anything I want to see people doing on Mefi. For better and worse, the post-your-song, take-your-chances thing feels a lot more equitable and sensible than introducing artificial ephemerality to the process just so people can "bump" their songs.
posted by cortex at 6:48 AM on June 23

cortex - fair point, well made. I shall desist from attempts to pump, dump, bump, thump, trump, clump, tump or flump my material. Ok ok, so I made one of those words up.....

MeFiMu is by far the best site I've come across - a genuine pleasure (much to my surprise as a cynical, bitter old bastard) - and I'm very happy to go with the flow.
posted by MajorDundee at 11:53 AM on June 23

I've put a couple of tracks up lately that got zip comment - maybe because they were no good (!).
posted by MajorDundee

I'm really glad you mentioned this, because this is a phenomenon that I'll never understand. First of all, I don't think it is related to quality at all. The only way I can kind of explain it is with the way I use the site: Sometimes I am too busy to check out all of the new songs that have been posted, so I check the names I recognize first. Most of the time I'll leave a comment the first time I listen to it, but sometimes I just make a mental note and come back to it. If things get busy on the following days, I might not come back to the song at all, even if it was posted by someone I "know" well and I liked the song.

A good example of this is a song that Karlos The Jackal posted a couple of days ago. I really shouldn't let that go without leaving a comment, but Monday I was busy and yesterday I had to go to Uruguay and I came back very late.

So, it might be that some days people don't hang out at music at all, or that they (we) just come to the site in a haste, and don't really take time to comment. Don't take it personally (or against the song), MajorDundee.

If flapjax doesn't mind the derail, I'd love to hear other people talking about what makes them comment on a song (or not commenting).
posted by micayetoca at 6:24 AM on June 24 [2 favorites has favorites]

Hey, mica, I don't mind the derail at all, and I think your comment was a good and thoughtful one.

And anyway, it seems like anyone with an opinion on the "delete button" idea has already expressed it (some have expressed it repeatedly...), so at this point it's just a mods decision, far as I can tell. I wonder where they're gonna come down on it...

hello mods?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:19 AM on June 24

It's, uh, "in committee"? We've been going back and forth in email about it some, trying to pin down some of the implications that such a change would have and whether or not implementing it as such would be a good move.

Part of Matt's motivation for his initial "yeah, that could work" sentiment was a concern that managing deletion requests from the admin side was cumbersome or problematic, but in talking about it more it's come clear that (a) we don't field many requests, so the admin labor involved in the current process really isn't an incentive to implement the new route, and (b) we could with minimal effort clean up the admin process that does exists to make even that process a little cleaner and one-click than it is.

I don't have a crystal ball, we're still sort of talking about it along with some of these other interface notions that have come up (embedding, playlist stuff, Music-centric profile things), but without a modly consensus that the button is a great idea it's not looking super likely at the moment.
posted by cortex at 8:08 AM on June 24

Thanks for the update, cortex.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:28 AM on June 24

Oh, and "Music-centric profile things" sounds interesting...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:30 AM on June 24

"Music-centric profile things" sounds veeeery interesting.
posted by micayetoca at 8:44 AM on June 24

Heh, I don't want to light up too many stars in y'all eyes there; it's more of a brainstormy notion than a specific plan, though it's certainly something I'm interested in thoughts on. I think we've talked about it a bit in the past, actually, in Metatalk, but I in general I do like the idea of identifying some specific music-related stuff that might make sense as supplementary profile info.

How exactly that'd work, I don't know, hence the brainstorminess. But it'd be nice if there were e.g. some easy way to sort of have a "here's the place(s) where my off-site music lives, here's where my albums-for-sale are" type of housing that's more formal than just generically listing such stuff in your freeform profile area, which would have the advantage of making such things more easily searchable or to integrate that info into Music-specific functions or whatnot.
posted by cortex at 8:48 AM on June 24

Can we have a thing where everytime someone clicks on something, some money goes into my PayPal? I think that would be a good feature.
Our TV just blew up and we're broke. And there's a garbage strike in Toronto. And it's fucking HOT.
posted by chococat at 9:43 AM on June 24 [1 favorite has favorites]

That sounds like a song that needs writing, dude.
posted by cortex at 10:06 AM on June 24

Perhaps the delete button could appear after a certain amount of time, say six months or so, to prevent unmoderated continuity errors in the recent collective mefi-mory. Other than that, a msg to the mods would have to suffice to remove drunken (in my case at least) postings.

Micayatoca, this is a tough point. Like you, I have times when I'm really busy. Days like these I probably just want to listen to something I know I will like, rather than provide constructive, or dickish, criticism/praise to new music. I know peer validation is a lot of the reason why we post track here; Sometimes I'll listen to every song on the front page and try and post comments, which usually amount to "Good job". How meaningful is this to the OP? I don't know.

We used to have the number of plays displayed, but I understand this method had its limitations (based on folks who listened past 60 seconds or something). Maybe more metrics like this would help a poster understand if people didn't like the track, or if it was just that nobody really heard it. For example, track pages could display numbers of downloads, and number of track page views. Reconciling this with the MeFiMu front page data would probably be impossible, so just don't try to do it. Treat the front page is the preview, and viewing the track page with as a measure of interest.

Some MeFi users are extremely popular and their tracks will always get more comments and favorites. Furthermore, popularity breeds more popularity via the Most Favorited/Playlisted lists. This will always prioritize the music of users who are more linked (popular) than those who are less linked. I think if even the least popular users could see that out of the X people number of people that heard the track, Y commented and Z favorited, they would be more likely to get the validation they are looking for.

This seems kind of crass to talk about, but it is interesting nonetheless. I'm sure that my suggestions aren't the perfect solution. If the MetaTalk thread shows you anything, it is that people disagree about pretty much everything.
posted by dobie at 10:42 AM on June 24

mica - thoughtful comments - thank you. Oddly enough, due to time contraints etc I don't often listen to every new post either. So I guess I'm being a total fucking hypocrite whining about my stuff not being listened to! What a wanker......

I am a relative newbie to MiFiMu and an unashamed IT ignoramus, and for both reasons I don't feel particularly "qualified" to pass comment on all this stuff. But on several days' reflection I am growing a little nervous about the mushrooming discussion around changing the way that posts are made or deleted or links made to members' websites or whatever. MiFiMu is pretty damn good as it is - I can pray in aid a newbie's fresh perspective in justifying that comment. It's an easy-osie, friendly place with a bunch of amusing, decent, articulate people on board. Cultures like that are rare and special. But they can also be surprisingly delicate. Apparently innocuous change can have unexpected consequences - not always for the better. In sum, I guess I'm beginning to think "guys...if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
posted by MajorDundee at 2:33 PM on June 24 [1 favorite has favorites]

I get the feeling that on this side of Metafilter it doesn't really matter how new to the site you are. People keep joining all the time, but most people just post a song or two, leave a comment or two and that's that. Then every once in a while there's a new member who really jumps in. You've been very active since you joined and I think that alone "qualifies" you to pass comment (if there was a "qualifier" to begin with). Don't worry about being new, I think people here really appreciate active contribution and no one would think you have less of a right than any of the older members.

And I agree with you, this is a really unique and very cool place for musicians. and I definitely see your point when you say "...if it ain't broke don't fix it", though some little changes that people have requested would do wonders, and perhaps even invite a more active participation. Perhaps we could have some "polling" among MefiMusic users before starting the actual work on the changes.
posted by micayetoca at 3:21 PM on June 24 [1 favorite has favorites]

What mica said. About MajorDundee. I mean, here's a new guy who's jumped right in with both feet, and is already responsible for starting the ball rolling on the next Big MeFi Music Challenge (Velvet Underground here we come). Yay to involved, active members, whether new or old!

In other news, it looks like my idea for a user-activated delete button is probably not gonna happen. Some folks in the thread thought it a good idea (especially early on in the posting) but as the votes came in, it seemed that more and more people were agin' it. I'm disappointed about that, of course, but, hey, whaddayougunnado?

One other thing: cortex, as a child of the south, I'm happy to see you flirting with the Southern Vernacular ("I don't want to light up too many stars in y'all eyes there..."), but as a proud defender of such heritage, I am compelled to inform that in this case "y'all's" as opposed to "y'all" is the version you're looking for. A for effort, though.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:43 PM on June 24 [1 favorite has favorites]

I started with "y'all's" and then decided that as long as I was faking it, I might as well fake it idiosyncractically and own my Granola Coast setting. Heh.
posted by cortex at 3:46 PM on June 24

I'm disappointed about that, of course, but, hey, whaddayougunnado?


Well, we haven't tried bribing pb yet, have we?
posted by micayetoca at 4:09 PM on June 24

Actually, yes. I tried. Guy's got ethics. I give up.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:11 PM on June 24

flapjax, good on ya for bringing up the "delete button" idea. Sure, it doesn't look like that one is a fit, but your bringing it up resulted in a few more ideas and a great discussion about how folks think MeFi and Music should be managed or has been managed and what that means to the integrity of the site. Thinking of people like MajorDundee, who are newer here, they probably learned a lot about the Mefi in general.

If flapjax doesn't mind the derail, I'd love to hear other people talking about what makes them comment on a song (or not commenting).
posted by micayetoca at 6:24 AM

This is to kinda answer MajorDundee's question too; When Music first fired up, if you didn't get any comments it was most likely because you posted a clunker. But that isn't the case anymore. Since then there has been a lot of discussion about getting more mefites involved and contributing and it's worked. So now we have a solid group of regulars and many others who post when the mood strikes and etc.

Making or trying to make meaningful comments takes time, and really listening (at least for me it does). I miss many songs here even though I try to hit this place every day. Sometimes I just hit "favorite" when I don't have time and like something but if something really hits me in the breadbasket, then I have I have no excuse to not comment.
posted by snsranch at 5:16 PM on June 24

Music has been super active as of late, which has been really great to see. Myself, I have been a pretty busy, which is why my comments have mostly just been positive one liners, instead of really diving in. It can be overwhelming when I stop by and see "10 new songs and 126 new comments" at the top. This is something I see often in the Blue, Green and Gray, but it's not generally the case for me with Music. But, nothing to be done about that except make it part of my day to make sure I participate more again. It's important to me that I try and give every song an honest listen. This doesn't always mean a comment, even though many times (like micayetoca) I mean to come back and comment, and never get around to it. Whenever I see a song from someone who has never posted before, I make sure to post a welcoming comment, in the hope that they'll not be a drive by poster.

I do, right or wrong, tend to avoid the songs of people who never contribute anything else.
posted by Corduroy at 10:31 PM on June 24

Hello!

I'm really glad you mentioned this, because this is a phenomenon that I'll never understand. First of all, I don't think it is related to quality at all. The only way I can kind of explain it is with the way I use the site: Sometimes I am too busy to check out all of the new songs that have been posted, so I check the names I recognize first.

There is this, which is why I would encourage everyone who wants comments to comment more; the more you comment, the more comments you'll get, because micayetoca (and others) will recognize your name. And then it gets all circley.

I get the feeling that MeFiMu is slower on the weekends as far as listening and commenting goes, but I have not "run" any "numbers" so I may just be goofy. If I'm right, Friday is the worst time to post a song 'cause it ends up halfway down the page by the time Music picks up again. Anyone else see this? Or is it confirmation bias on my part?

Another made-up impression that I have is that really popular challenges might subtract attention from non-challenge songs -- in the same way that some people might scan the page looking for user names you recognize, some people might scan the page looking for more versions of "Hallelujah." I'm not saying this is a bad thing at all, but personally I think I'll avoid posting non-challenge songs when we're in the midst of something particularly fun and exciting.

Sometimes I'll listen to every song on the front page and try and post comments, which usually amount to "Good job". How meaningful is this to the OP? I don't know.

"Meaningful," I dunno either. But I think it's always nice to hear.

If flapjax doesn't mind the derail, I'd love to hear other people talking about what makes them comment on a song (or not commenting).

Well okay yeah.

I try to keep up. Some nights I'll listen to everything I can and I comment on almost everything. There's almost always something cool going on -- a neat turn of phrase, or the way the drums were recorded, or something. And it's always worth saying, "Hey, this decision you made? That was a good decision." Even if it's a little thing, even if it turns out to be an accident. (Like this comment, which compliments me on something I didn't realize I'd done.)

Sometimes I'll just say what mental image it puts in my head, or who it reminds me of, because -- although it's not a critique or even a statement of like/dislike -- I think that's really interesting to hear. I have difficulty telling how something of mine is going to be heard by someone else, so it's always interesting to me when someone compares me to some band or another, or they say "this makes me think of playing canasta in a flooded basement!" or whatever. Fascinating! Hopefully when I say things like "Oh hey you sound like the Flying Lizards but with the guy from Happy Flowers singing" no one gets offended.

I don't comment on some of the purely ambient stuff because I just don't "get" it at all. But I'll listen and if there's a cool little bit that catches my ear I'll comment on it.

If I don't have time to be thorough I'll click on people I "know" and also on people who are totally unfamiliar, especially if they say something like "this is my first post!" I also try and keep up with the challenges.

I look for stuff that has no comments yet because the idea of someone putting a piece of themselves out there and getting no response at all makes me sad. The unintended result of this is I sometimes end up skipping stuff that has lots of comments, meaning that I miss good songs every now and then.

That's all I can think of right now.

(Oh, and I never posted my feelings about the delete button because I didn't really feel much about it either way.)

A good example of this is a song that Karlos The Jackal posted a couple of days ago. I really shouldn't let that go without leaving a comment, but Monday I was busy and yesterday I had to go to Uruguay and I came back very late.

URUGUAY! *shakes fist*
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 3:20 AM on June 25

Also, while everyone's looking at me, would it be possible for the user activity page to differentiate between songs and posts? Like right now if I go to, say, flapjax's profile and click on "Music: 61 posts" I go here and I think it'd be nice if it visually showed that "Chain and Shadow" was a song and "Artists' control of their output at Mefi Music" was a Music Talk post -- like one could be indented or hi-lit or you know.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 3:27 AM on June 25

would it be possible for the user activity page to differentiate between songs and posts?

Yes, yes, yes. I've had the same thought lately. I'd love to see such a distinction made clear, that'd be really helpful.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:03 AM on June 25

And it's always worth saying, "Hey, this decision you made? That was a good decision." Even if it's a little thing, even if it turns out to be an accident.

Yeah, totally. I always like "this is nice", but I like a little bit of direct engagement with the song a lot more, even if it's just on some tiny bit of it or something almost tangential to what I was going for, say. Engage the music!

Also, while everyone's looking at me, would it be possible for the user activity page to differentiate between songs and posts?

That's not a bad idea at all, yeah. It's the way it is because when were first bootstrapping Music Talk it was a lot easier to have them be the same Kind of database object but with a control flag distinguishing between type. Which was really convenient for getting things working with a minimal fuss, but also means that, yeah, there's no visual distinction between the two.

Now that Talk's been running a while and we can see where these things collide a bit, it's probably time to look at tweaking some of it. The activity page is the one place where I've noticed this being genuinely confusing, but are there any other Talk-related weirdnesses people have run into?
posted by cortex at 7:01 AM on June 25

Making or trying to make meaningful comments takes time, and really listening (at least for me it does).

Me, too, x1000. Which usually leaves me not commenting, and then puts me in sort of a shame-spiral that keeps me away from the site more than I'd like to be. It's something I'm trying to figure out...
posted by COBRA! at 8:20 AM on June 25

We should just take advantage of the slowness of weekends and declare a recurring Shame Spiral Sunday*, so everyone can start fresh and guilt-free the next day. Maybe have a flash game where you have to paint a spiral and a frowny face on a goat and then hie it on into the desert.

*Synergistic opportunities here with several world religions are an unintended bonus.
posted by cortex at 8:34 AM on June 25 [1 favorite has favorites]

I like where this is going.
posted by COBRA! at 9:07 AM on June 25

"Shame Spiral Sunday" sounds like the name of a future Music Challenge to me; perhaps we could have an activity based challenge rather than a song writing based challenge..
posted by dobie at 11:17 AM on June 25 [1 favorite has favorites]

Guys - having read through this lot I don't think we need any fancy new buttons or links or twiddly stuff. No. What we really, really need is a MeFiMu glossary!

Three for starters:

"Derail" - ok, that's self-evident even for the technologically challenged (i.e. me)
"Bootstrapping" - ....er......
"control flag" - ...what?

And someone really should have a crack at "Shame Sprial Sunday" to the tune of the old Monkeys number "Pleasant Valley Sunday". I haven't time now to bastardise the entire lyric, but here's a starter for the first couple of verses:

The virtual rock group down the street
Is trying to upload their song
Seranade the weekend Mefites, who just came out to blow their horns [that last bit is well past crap actually]

Another shame spiral sunday
guilty conscience everywhere
50 covers that are all the same
And no one seems to care


And here's the rest of the original lyric for others to finish...er..."adapting":

See mrs. gray shes proud today because her roses are in bloom
Mr. green hes so serene, hes got a t.v. in every room

Another pleasant valley sunday
Here in status symbol land
Mothers complain about how hard life is
And the kids just dont understand

Creature comfort goals
They only numb my soul and make it hard for me to see
My thoughts all seem to stray, to places far away
I need a change of scenery

Ta ta ta...

Another pleasant valley sunday
Charcoal burning everywhere
Another pleasant valley sunday
Here in status symbol land

Another pleasant valley sunday...
posted by MajorDundee at 2:47 PM on June 25

here's the rest of the original lyric for others to finish...er..."adapting"...

I'm thinking more "Monday Monday" by the Mamas and the Papas.

Sunday Sunday
so good to me
I can be
the co-mment-er
I'd hoped I could be
I'll listen to
the songs I missed
and I guaranteeeee
that Monday morning there'll be a pile
of new comments from me...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:36 PM on June 25

I should definitely comment more, but (1) I can't keep up and (2) don't always have anything intelligent to say, even if I like or dislike a track.
posted by doubtfulpalace at 5:59 PM on June 26 [1 favorite has favorites]

Me too, but I try and try and try...
posted by snsranch at 8:01 PM on June 26