January Collaboration Challenge Early Notice
December 12, 2010 4:01 PM
Alright, I'm giving up a little early notice for the January Collaboration Challenge. This is redundant for those who follow MeFi Music regularly, but here goes.
For the January Collaboration challenge we will be paired up with another MeFite to work together to create a musical work.
To facilitate that I'll post this again tomorrow on MetaTalk and continue to gather names of willing participants for about 5 days. At that time I'll pull them from a hat, pair people up and post again with the results.
If you've already signed up in previous threads, you can consider yourself counted. So, if you have any complaints, comments, challenge ideas, if I've forgotten anything or you want to arm-wrestle with me, this thread is YOURS!
posted by snsranch (41 comments total)
For the January Collaboration challenge we will be paired up with another MeFite to work together to create a musical work.
To facilitate that I'll post this again tomorrow on MetaTalk and continue to gather names of willing participants for about 5 days. At that time I'll pull them from a hat, pair people up and post again with the results.
If you've already signed up in previous threads, you can consider yourself counted. So, if you have any complaints, comments, challenge ideas, if I've forgotten anything or you want to arm-wrestle with me, this thread is YOURS!
sns and I had a brief conversation about interchange formats and I think if we all work in systems which can export and import 16-bit 44.1 KHz wav files we should be fine.
In the worse case person A can just export as an MP3 and person B can import.
I am very happy to do transcoding for people if they need help with it.
I'm in Logic, FWIW.
posted by unSane at 10:49 AM on December 13, 2010
In the worse case person A can just export as an MP3 and person B can import.
I am very happy to do transcoding for people if they need help with it.
I'm in Logic, FWIW.
posted by unSane at 10:49 AM on December 13, 2010
Another Logic user here, although with the drawn-from-a-hat pairing it's quite likely that I'll be matched with someone who uses a different setup. But anyway, audio files are audio files, and as log as we're talking WAV or AIFF (or heck, even mp3, since it's no prob to convert) then there should be no problem.
I think it'll be interesting to see how each pair divvies up the workload: who starts, who finishes, how many times tracks go back and forth, that sort of thing.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:24 PM on December 13, 2010
I think it'll be interesting to see how each pair divvies up the workload: who starts, who finishes, how many times tracks go back and forth, that sort of thing.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:24 PM on December 13, 2010
No Logic. WAVs are alright. I've got a stand-alone recorder which uses some silly proprietary format, but I put this together with it and WAVs (and I think some MP3s, too) and it worked fine.
Also: I have been told by various people that I've tried to collaborate with that I am "difficult." FAIR WARNING
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 6:02 PM on December 13, 2010
Also: I have been told by various people that I've tried to collaborate with that I am "difficult." FAIR WARNING
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 6:02 PM on December 13, 2010
I think it'll be interesting to see how each pair divvies up the workload: who starts, who finishes, how many times tracks go back and forth, that sort of thing.
Oh, and yes -- I hope people include a rundown of this in their posts.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 6:03 PM on December 13, 2010
Oh, and yes -- I hope people include a rundown of this in their posts.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 6:03 PM on December 13, 2010
Major Dundee suggested a very easy way of circumventing difficulties -- simply recording a track and giving to the other person to do what the heck they like with. And vice versa.
posted by unSane at 6:44 PM on December 13, 2010
posted by unSane at 6:44 PM on December 13, 2010
Major Dundee suggested a very easy way of circumventing difficulties -- simply recording a track and giving to the other person to do what the heck they like with. And vice versa.
That sounds practical.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:59 AM on December 14, 2010
That sounds practical.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:59 AM on December 14, 2010
I think my suggestion was actually more about remixing/reinventing than anything - swap a "finished" track each, go to town on it, post/link both the original and the reimagined track and await rapturous plaudits. Aha! - whoever I get to pair with (I'm in btw) we really must use Rapturous Plaudits as our nom de guerre..... Unless I get Karlos, in which case we'll be called A Little Local Difficulty. In fact, each pair should come up with a band name just for the duration of the challenge?
Naturally, the swapping approach could work with anything really - even just starting the ball rolling with a chord progression or rhythm and passing it across, getting it back and adding something else and passing it back again. It could of course result in absolute disaster. But, hey, that's all part of the general 'trifficness that is MeFiMoo.
posted by MajorDundee at 12:20 PM on December 14, 2010
Naturally, the swapping approach could work with anything really - even just starting the ball rolling with a chord progression or rhythm and passing it across, getting it back and adding something else and passing it back again. It could of course result in absolute disaster. But, hey, that's all part of the general 'trifficness that is MeFiMoo.
posted by MajorDundee at 12:20 PM on December 14, 2010
Different point/issue. Just read sns's splendid post over on MetaTalk drumming up business for the challenge. Someone made a very good point about potentially mismatched pairs. You know, someone with highly developed skills being paired with someone who has loads of enthusiasm but can't tell a crotchet from a cucumber.
I'm very conscious that even just typing that sounds rather mean-spirited. But......hhhmmm.....a really bad mismatch could turn something from being fun to being, well, not much fun at all. How do we deal with that eventuality without being all snooty, precious and picky? Personally, I'd take it with a pinch of salt and just go with the flow - could be a lot of fun. But others may not be quite so relaxed about it. You're just maybe going to have to be prepared to be teacher/guide as well as partner. You never know, you might help unlock someone's latent talent - which would be reward enough, and some.
Thoughts??
posted by MajorDundee at 12:45 PM on December 14, 2010
I'm very conscious that even just typing that sounds rather mean-spirited. But......hhhmmm.....a really bad mismatch could turn something from being fun to being, well, not much fun at all. How do we deal with that eventuality without being all snooty, precious and picky? Personally, I'd take it with a pinch of salt and just go with the flow - could be a lot of fun. But others may not be quite so relaxed about it. You're just maybe going to have to be prepared to be teacher/guide as well as partner. You never know, you might help unlock someone's latent talent - which would be reward enough, and some.
Thoughts??
posted by MajorDundee at 12:45 PM on December 14, 2010
Hey Major! Yes. There are other folks concerned about that too so I'm offering to help out and do some rematching, somehow, if things don't work out for folks after a day or two of trying.
You're absolutely right too. I'm sure we're going to have some interesting pairings, but that's OK. Everybody here has different levels of ability, but everyone is also very helpful and cool. At the very least, I hope everyone has some fun with this as a kind of ice-breaker, so that we can maybe move on to some other collaborative things like you and unSane have mentioned...mixing other's work and stuff.
posted by snsranch at 1:02 PM on December 14, 2010
You're absolutely right too. I'm sure we're going to have some interesting pairings, but that's OK. Everybody here has different levels of ability, but everyone is also very helpful and cool. At the very least, I hope everyone has some fun with this as a kind of ice-breaker, so that we can maybe move on to some other collaborative things like you and unSane have mentioned...mixing other's work and stuff.
posted by snsranch at 1:02 PM on December 14, 2010
I am probably more difficult to work with than Karlos, but I'm in. Why not?
posted by uncleozzy at 4:06 PM on December 14, 2010
posted by uncleozzy at 4:06 PM on December 14, 2010
Sounds like Karlos and uncleozzy are a match made in heaven!
I've worked with Major Dundee and he's a pussycat.
posted by unSane at 4:37 PM on December 14, 2010
I've worked with Major Dundee and he's a pussycat.
posted by unSane at 4:37 PM on December 14, 2010
I am probably more difficult to work with than Karlos
I am both a perfectionist and borderline incompetent. Bring it on.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 6:54 PM on December 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I am both a perfectionist and borderline incompetent. Bring it on.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 6:54 PM on December 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
Well, damn, looks like someone's gotta fudge the drawing a little bit!
posted by snsranch at 7:41 PM on December 14, 2010
posted by snsranch at 7:41 PM on December 14, 2010
Well, damn, looks like someone's gotta fudge the drawing a little bit!
Noo, random!
(I actually have a song I was thinking about asking uncleozzy about anyway, outside of the challenge -- for the challenge I think random would be more fun.)
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 11:51 PM on December 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Noo, random!
(I actually have a song I was thinking about asking uncleozzy about anyway, outside of the challenge -- for the challenge I think random would be more fun.)
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 11:51 PM on December 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Hey, I've got over 300 trashed takes from a 3'30" song that a) is mind-numbingly stupid; and b) isn't even finished. Although that probably speaks more to incompetence and indecisiveness than to perfectionism.
And I'm always up for collaboration... when I get around to it. Turnaround time in the Alpaca Room has been pretty slow for a while now.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:16 AM on December 15, 2010
And I'm always up for collaboration... when I get around to it. Turnaround time in the Alpaca Room has been pretty slow for a while now.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:16 AM on December 15, 2010
I've been wimping out on this for days now, but I'll likely regret it if I don't participate, so please do count me in. I'm happy to do anything except sing (I can't drum to save my life either, but will happily sequence/loop it up all day long), and would definitely be into receiving a complete/almost complete track and remixing/remodeling. But anything goes.
posted by mintcake! at 9:08 PM on December 15, 2010
posted by mintcake! at 9:08 PM on December 15, 2010
Count me in as well. I mostly play acoustic guitar and sing, but I also do glitchy laptop stuff. Should be fun.
posted by ianK at 2:01 AM on December 16, 2010
posted by ianK at 2:01 AM on December 16, 2010
I might suggest that Reaper would be the perfect DAW for collaborators, since the evaluation version lasts for 30 days and is totally uncrippled. Also, the full version is only $60 or so. Also, it's the best DAW*.
(*Kidding! But not really; it is the best.)
posted by Cantdosleepy at 5:12 AM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
(*Kidding! But not really; it is the best.)
posted by Cantdosleepy at 5:12 AM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think trying to collaborate while learning a new DAW might lead to some kind of breakdown.
posted by unSane at 5:32 AM on December 16, 2010
posted by unSane at 5:32 AM on December 16, 2010
Yeah, you may well be right.
For folk with no DAW at all, or those just dipping their toes, it might be a good suggestion, being more intuitive than Audacity, and more widely compatible than Garageband.
posted by Cantdosleepy at 6:15 AM on December 16, 2010
For folk with no DAW at all, or those just dipping their toes, it might be a good suggestion, being more intuitive than Audacity, and more widely compatible than Garageband.
posted by Cantdosleepy at 6:15 AM on December 16, 2010
I'm still in. Logic user as well.
posted by zephyr_words at 12:25 AM on December 17, 2010
posted by zephyr_words at 12:25 AM on December 17, 2010
Logic user
Computer-speak always makes me feel like I'm in Italy or Greece or somewhere like that where the people are cool and friendly and you understand one or two words but the rest is complete gibberish - you just kind of nod and smile a lot and hope you blag your way through to some kind of understanding. I don't even know what Logic is! And, moreover, I don't give a flying fuck!! For what it's worth I use a stand-alone Yamaha AW2400 with real faders and stuff - cos I'm an old git and I like to do things the old-fashioned way. But I can export the files as WAV or mp3, so shouldn't be a problem if I pair up with a laptop jockey.
posted by MajorDundee at 11:30 AM on December 17, 2010
Computer-speak always makes me feel like I'm in Italy or Greece or somewhere like that where the people are cool and friendly and you understand one or two words but the rest is complete gibberish - you just kind of nod and smile a lot and hope you blag your way through to some kind of understanding. I don't even know what Logic is! And, moreover, I don't give a flying fuck!! For what it's worth I use a stand-alone Yamaha AW2400 with real faders and stuff - cos I'm an old git and I like to do things the old-fashioned way. But I can export the files as WAV or mp3, so shouldn't be a problem if I pair up with a laptop jockey.
posted by MajorDundee at 11:30 AM on December 17, 2010
I use the dinky BCF2000 to get real faders with Logic. I'd love to have a Mackie Control or something similar but too spendy.
posted by unSane at 11:55 AM on December 17, 2010
posted by unSane at 11:55 AM on December 17, 2010
My oceans have been rocked by Dundee's WAVs and I can tell you: they worked; oh yes, they worked just fine.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:57 AM on December 17, 2010
posted by uncleozzy at 11:57 AM on December 17, 2010
But none of that matters, MajorDundee, because you get better sounding production out of your Yamaha stand-alone than I can ever get out of Pro Tools.
That's hugely flattering - thank you - but I'm not sure it's really true, about the songwriting or performance as well as my gear. Joking aside, I'd really like to know how to use things like ProTools and my lack of computer suss is a real hinderance I think. Trouble is that although I'd love to be able to use that kind of software, I'm pretty lazy and I get discouraged quickly if I can't follow something intuitively and use it immediately. If you - or any of the guys for that matter - know of a tutorial that is designed for computer numpties* (or just the aged and incipiently senile) I'd be keen to know about it.
*Scottish usage (singlular is a "numpty"):
a) Someone who (sometimes unwittingly) by speech or action demonstrates a lack of knowledge or misconception of a particular subject or situation to the amusement of others.
b) A reckless, absent minded or unwise person
posted by MajorDundee at 12:07 PM on December 17, 2010
That's hugely flattering - thank you - but I'm not sure it's really true, about the songwriting or performance as well as my gear. Joking aside, I'd really like to know how to use things like ProTools and my lack of computer suss is a real hinderance I think. Trouble is that although I'd love to be able to use that kind of software, I'm pretty lazy and I get discouraged quickly if I can't follow something intuitively and use it immediately. If you - or any of the guys for that matter - know of a tutorial that is designed for computer numpties* (or just the aged and incipiently senile) I'd be keen to know about it.
*Scottish usage (singlular is a "numpty"):
a) Someone who (sometimes unwittingly) by speech or action demonstrates a lack of knowledge or misconception of a particular subject or situation to the amusement of others.
b) A reckless, absent minded or unwise person
posted by MajorDundee at 12:07 PM on December 17, 2010
Should have added that I also get freaked out when reading about this stuff and you get some geezer sucking his teeth and saying "of course you'll need to replace your soundcard and your interfaces will all have to be upgraded etc". That puts me off almost immediately. I know as much about this stuff as what goes on under the bonnet of my car (i.e. sweet fuck all) - and I can just take that to my local garage when it goes wrong and they fix it. And then there's things like how do I plug all my mics and stuff in, what about phantom power, digital ins and outs etc? All in all, it ends up in the "Too Difficult To Tackle" basket. So that's really why I stick with my Yam - it's built specifically for the job it does and I don't have to prat about with it. But it's now obsolete, and if it breaks down I'm sunk. So I can't really afford to be such a luddite any more.
posted by MajorDundee at 12:31 PM on December 17, 2010
posted by MajorDundee at 12:31 PM on December 17, 2010
It can be a pretty steep learning curve, Major, but at bottom it's not very different from what you do now. You can get in pretty cheap with Reaper, which is fully functional and free for a month and $60 after that.
All you would need in addition to your current kit is probably an audio interface of some kind. I use the Tascam 1641 which has ten inputs, phantom power, everything you'd ever need really. But there are tons of good choices.
If you are using tons of plugins it can get hard on the CPU but the way you have been working you would probably be just fine with a mid-level PC or Mac or whatever you have.
I've used Cubase, Logic and Reaper and they are all good. I haven't used ProTools. They all come with a bunch of plugins -- compressors and delays and reverbs and so on.
But there is indisputably a ton more buggering about with a software DAW. I would be cautious about committing to moving over to one without thoroughly exploring it first. Even if your Yammy goes south, the cost of multitrack stuff is coming down all the time -- 24 tracks for well under a grand, depending on where you buy. And I personally find that it's really hard to work without physical knobs and buttons.
I feel the biggest question is what is going to make you most productive. I've lost days and weeks to fucking around with software and hardware when I could have been recording. I'm past that now, mostly, but it was a long and steep road.
I would download Reaper and have a play with it. There's nothing radically different about it from the other suites. And anything you can do on your current set-up -- buses, effects, routing -- can be done in Reaper. So for example you could, with a bit of work, set up a template to emulate the way you work now, which might get you up and running.
Why not spawn another talk thread where we can give you a bit of support if you decide to try it?
posted by unSane at 12:50 PM on December 17, 2010
All you would need in addition to your current kit is probably an audio interface of some kind. I use the Tascam 1641 which has ten inputs, phantom power, everything you'd ever need really. But there are tons of good choices.
If you are using tons of plugins it can get hard on the CPU but the way you have been working you would probably be just fine with a mid-level PC or Mac or whatever you have.
I've used Cubase, Logic and Reaper and they are all good. I haven't used ProTools. They all come with a bunch of plugins -- compressors and delays and reverbs and so on.
But there is indisputably a ton more buggering about with a software DAW. I would be cautious about committing to moving over to one without thoroughly exploring it first. Even if your Yammy goes south, the cost of multitrack stuff is coming down all the time -- 24 tracks for well under a grand, depending on where you buy. And I personally find that it's really hard to work without physical knobs and buttons.
I feel the biggest question is what is going to make you most productive. I've lost days and weeks to fucking around with software and hardware when I could have been recording. I'm past that now, mostly, but it was a long and steep road.
I would download Reaper and have a play with it. There's nothing radically different about it from the other suites. And anything you can do on your current set-up -- buses, effects, routing -- can be done in Reaper. So for example you could, with a bit of work, set up a template to emulate the way you work now, which might get you up and running.
Why not spawn another talk thread where we can give you a bit of support if you decide to try it?
posted by unSane at 12:50 PM on December 17, 2010
I'd love to have a Mackie Control or something similar but too spendy.
I just picked up a PreSonus Faderport on eBay for $85. I've had it for a week, and now I can't imagine living without it.
posted by malocchio at 1:08 PM on December 17, 2010
I just picked up a PreSonus Faderport on eBay for $85. I've had it for a week, and now I can't imagine living without it.
posted by malocchio at 1:08 PM on December 17, 2010
Thanks unSane - helpful as ever. I actually got Cubase (probably an old version) with my Yam, but haven't used it. Maybe I'll give it a go and see how far I get. I think there's provision on my Yam for it to "talk" to Cubase via a USB link. Might be a way of easing into it by using my Yam as the equivalent of a non-swimmer using a float.
I've thought about buying another Yam AW2400 as a backup. The price of them secondhand is beginning to drop, so it might be feasible in due course. Running a pair of them together would give me 48 tracks at 16-bit and 24 at 24-bit - which is plenty more than I'll ever need. Like you, I really do like to ride the faders etc and recording is a very physical process to me. I can't think of much worse than what you describe re fucking around with software for weeks - I'd end up setting fire to the bloody lot of it and going down the pub.
posted by MajorDundee at 1:24 PM on December 17, 2010
I've thought about buying another Yam AW2400 as a backup. The price of them secondhand is beginning to drop, so it might be feasible in due course. Running a pair of them together would give me 48 tracks at 16-bit and 24 at 24-bit - which is plenty more than I'll ever need. Like you, I really do like to ride the faders etc and recording is a very physical process to me. I can't think of much worse than what you describe re fucking around with software for weeks - I'd end up setting fire to the bloody lot of it and going down the pub.
posted by MajorDundee at 1:24 PM on December 17, 2010
hey, malocchio, thanks for that link to the FaderPort, that looks great. Think I'm gonna have to buy one of them suckers.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:39 PM on December 17, 2010
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:39 PM on December 17, 2010
Just to contradict myself, there *are* a bunch of things you can do in software that are much harder on a physical DAW. You have access to a huge array of samples for things like organs, strings, drums and whatever you want really. You can set up drum busses and backing vox busses. You can automate pretty much anything you want very easily.
But the sweet spot might be to continue working on your Yammie while also having a play with Reaper, which is probably a bit more state of the art than your copy of Cubase. You could probably figure out a way of syncing them fairly easily, which would give you the best of both worlds as you could set up your midi tracks in Reaper, and transfer anything you want into Reaper if you wanted to play with it.
posted by unSane at 5:21 PM on December 17, 2010
But the sweet spot might be to continue working on your Yammie while also having a play with Reaper, which is probably a bit more state of the art than your copy of Cubase. You could probably figure out a way of syncing them fairly easily, which would give you the best of both worlds as you could set up your midi tracks in Reaper, and transfer anything you want into Reaper if you wanted to play with it.
posted by unSane at 5:21 PM on December 17, 2010
Glad to be of service! I absolutely love it, especially after moving to a laptop DAW. (And don't even get me started on my NRV10 - I now have a prosumer recording studio that fits in a backpack!)
posted by malocchio at 5:21 PM on December 17, 2010
posted by malocchio at 5:21 PM on December 17, 2010
I'm still in. Time to get the four-track tape recorder out of storage...
Seriously though -- while I don't have a fancy recording setup, sending out WAV or AIFF files will be fine. I can play guitar and sing. I can mix tracks if necessary, but just a warning that it's really not my forte. Hopefully my collaborator will be a fan of lo-fi!
I've used a handful of different DAWs over the years. For sequencing, my favorite was Digital Performer, but it's been a really long time since I've used it. Even though it's loop-focused, for really simple multitrack recordings I often use an old version of Acid Xpress, the free limited version of Acid Pro (even though I have Acid Pro -- the Xpress version seems to run a bit faster).
As for the music content, is the challenge for original music only, or would it be OK to take, say, a traditional or public domain song and work with that? (That is of course if my collaborator would be interested in the idea.)
posted by rangefinder 1.4 at 9:44 PM on December 17, 2010
Seriously though -- while I don't have a fancy recording setup, sending out WAV or AIFF files will be fine. I can play guitar and sing. I can mix tracks if necessary, but just a warning that it's really not my forte. Hopefully my collaborator will be a fan of lo-fi!
I've used a handful of different DAWs over the years. For sequencing, my favorite was Digital Performer, but it's been a really long time since I've used it. Even though it's loop-focused, for really simple multitrack recordings I often use an old version of Acid Xpress, the free limited version of Acid Pro (even though I have Acid Pro -- the Xpress version seems to run a bit faster).
As for the music content, is the challenge for original music only, or would it be OK to take, say, a traditional or public domain song and work with that? (That is of course if my collaborator would be interested in the idea.)
posted by rangefinder 1.4 at 9:44 PM on December 17, 2010
I think you can basically choose to do whatever you like, including covers.
I think there are some virtues to choosing something which is already at least somewhat finished, like a cover, or a remix of one party's existing work, since the whole project is a bit less open ended. But it will no doubt depend on the pairings. If it was the Major and I, I suspect we would swap almost-finished songs that we had been having difficulty finishing and each let the other do their worst. But that might not work at all with someone else.
I also don't think, FWIW, that it has to be an equal collaboration. If all I do is put some backing harmonies on a song, that will be fine by me. Or whatever. But I think the really fun part of it will be doing something that the other person totally didn't expect.
posted by unSane at 9:59 PM on December 17, 2010
I think there are some virtues to choosing something which is already at least somewhat finished, like a cover, or a remix of one party's existing work, since the whole project is a bit less open ended. But it will no doubt depend on the pairings. If it was the Major and I, I suspect we would swap almost-finished songs that we had been having difficulty finishing and each let the other do their worst. But that might not work at all with someone else.
I also don't think, FWIW, that it has to be an equal collaboration. If all I do is put some backing harmonies on a song, that will be fine by me. Or whatever. But I think the really fun part of it will be doing something that the other person totally didn't expect.
posted by unSane at 9:59 PM on December 17, 2010
Thanks, unSane. I'm enthused about working with Karlos, and am looking forward to hearing everyone's songs.
posted by rangefinder 1.4 at 10:02 PM on December 19, 2010
posted by rangefinder 1.4 at 10:02 PM on December 19, 2010
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posted by umbú at 8:17 AM on December 13, 2010