Revamp the challenge?

June 5, 2013 7:11 PM

Recent challenges haven't been attracting much interest, and I've been doing it for long enough that I feel a bit burned out. So I suggest that we have a blue sky discussion about what the challenge is/should be, what works and what doesn't, and maybe someone else feels like picking up the torch and running with it?

I have my own ideas about what works and what doesn't but I feel like I'm too close to it, and maybe I'm in a bit of epistemic closure since I've only ever posted challenges that I though were cool.

Maybe we can think about challenges that really worked and use that as a bit of a jumping off point.

I think at this point, everything's up for grabs -- frequency, focus etc.

The only thing I will says is that LOW BARRIER TO ENTRY has always worked for the challenge, as has doing something with a very populist bent.
posted by unSane (62 comments total) 4 users marked this as a favorite

I agree with the stuff you say, especially the "low barrier" thing. That said, given the lack of mod interest in MeFiMu, I'm not convinced that anything discussed here will change the current state.

One basic example: the "Monthly Music Challenge" link needs to be updated regularly. I've made mod contact, as a reminder to change it, two or three times in the past because it hadn't happened in a timely manner; last month it didn't happen at all.

It'd be nice to have the Music Podcast back. It'd be nice to, for example, have songs show up in the sidebar every now and then. This is the kind of stuff that makes people dip in to MeFiMu -- the difficulty of, I dunno, being introduced to MeFiMu is a comment that's cropped up every now and then on the grey. But this is stuff that requires mod involvement, which does not seem to currently exist.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 9:43 PM on June 5, 2013

Personally all I can say is that I've been super super busy going back to school full-time while still working my day job, and the only stuff I've been able to do is simple little ambient noodly things that I'm not putting a ton of planning into.

The Radiohead challenge from last summer was incredibly successful, and I seem to recall the T.S. Eliot one had a good turnout. Oh yeah and the major/minor one was really fun, I thought. Always doing cover challenges seems like a bad idea, but artistic mashups in general seem to be the most interesting.

A couple of other thoughts:

1. I wish there were more ways to inform the rest of the MeFi populace about challenges, without being spammy of course.

2. I think "book soundtracks" are a cool idea. Pick a popular book and a scene or character from that book and write a song about it.

3. I would dig an "OS Startup Sound" challenge, or similar micro-music challenges...too weird?

Looking at the related tags for "mefimusicchallenge" I see that the most popular challenges tend to be either holiday music or covers. Of course you never really know what the majority of folks will think of as cool, which makes coming up with enticing challenges more difficult.
posted by Doleful Creature at 9:57 PM on June 5, 2013

If we had new challenges less frequently (eg. quarterly), perhaps the mods would be ok with us posting an announcement on Metatalk when a new one was launched, with results/highlights of the previous one listed?

It might help to let folk know what's going on over here and take an interest, even if they don't want to post themselves.

Also, that would give folk more time to think about what to submit and put it together.
posted by greenish at 3:35 AM on June 6, 2013

I think cortex is the Music Mod... not sure if that's an official designation or not. I know jessamyn commented on one of my submissions to tell me I was a bad person (guilty! sorry) and has submitted stuff as well. I can't remember other mods doing stuff here. Not saying they haven't, just that I don't remember it. Agreed that it'd be nice to see stuff sidebarred every once in a while.

Are there enough things posted here to make a podcast happen?

I think the issue with "introducing" people to MefiMu is that Metafilter is not primarily a site for music creators, or even really for music fans. Some people here are music fans. A smaller subset are music creators. Some of those creators post things here. I'm not saying that everyone who potentially would be involved with Music is already here, but... we have these discussions from time to time and I don't know that there's a clear path to increased involvement.
posted by dubold at 3:52 AM on June 6, 2013

Quite so. I've been a member for several years now in different guises and this issue is a hardy perennial.

I've come to accept that mefimusic is never going to be more than it is now - probably for the reasons that dubold flags. Basically no-one other than a handful of regulars gives a toss. It isn't helped by the way it's set up and particularly those absurd charts full of self-referential novelty songs and fucking ukuleles and what-have-you - but....yawn.....shrugs.

I don't give a shit about metafilter as such. I rarely if ever visit parts other than the music bit except when I can't resist taking the piss out of the more po-faced or bollocksy posts that catch my eye in passing. If the music bit wasn't there I'd never have signed up in the first place.

I was pondering this question earlier before posting this response, and thought that if enough of us are pissed off and motivated enough - why don't we start our own website? I've never been involved in anything like that but would be willing to lend a hand (although frankly my IT "skills" pretty much stop at uploading/downloading files!).

If something like that took off - perhaps with some of the diehards from mefimu as founding members - I think that'd be at least one positive thing that came out of the crapness of mefimusic. Sort of born in adversity (an exaggeration, but you get the point).

Tempting to call it metafuckoff....but no. The Lost Weekend appeals for some reason. It'll never happen, but hey...
posted by Hoops McCann at 4:50 AM on June 6, 2013

I think cortex is the Music Mod... not sure if that's an official designation or not. I know jessamyn commented on one of my submissions to tell me I was a bad person... Agreed that it'd be nice to see stuff sidebarred every once in a while.

Are there enough things posted here to make a podcast happen?

cortex was doing a podcast briefly and then got distracted. You might be able to get him to do one again, but he's not always the best at maintaining ongoing regular things, maybe if he had a colleague. Doesn't Pronoiac do a MeMu podcastish thing? I listen to MeMu, usually by getting the torrent and then listening to a year's worth of songs over a month. We'd certainly be interested in finding ways to make Music more visible. I've always thought one of the challenges should be "other users' request" where people who don't use MeMu could ask to have a piece done for them and other people could interpret that. I always wanted to get cortex to make a song about me that used the phrase "You are worse than Hitler" for example, but he never got around to it.
posted by jessamyn at 6:51 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

That's an awesome idea. I'd love to do like a "music raffle" where people put in requests which get randomly allocated to a music person who's signed up to take one on.

Hot damn this makes me wish I knew more about coding because I would totally love to make that happen.
posted by greenish at 7:08 AM on June 6, 2013

I've always thought one of the challenges should be "other users' request" where people who don't use MeMu could ask to have a piece done for them and other people could interpret that.

That is a fantastic idea and you should feel fantastic.
posted by dubold at 8:15 AM on June 6, 2013

Hot damn this makes me wish I knew more about coding because I would totally love to make that happen.

I am willing to make it happen with pieces of paper drawn randomly. I am completely serious.
posted by dubold at 8:18 AM on June 6, 2013

well, holy balls, let's DO THIS
posted by greenish at 8:58 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

posted by Doleful Creature at 9:11 AM on June 6, 2013

I've been super-busy, and have started-but-not-finished most of the challenges this year, but I would totally commit to a request. Possibly fulfilled in a highly-slapdash fashion, but fulfilled nonetheless.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:14 PM on June 6, 2013

I think part of the problem is that there are so many other communities where musicians can post their music. Virtually every bit of music software that exists has its own online community that includes a subforum for music posting. And for people heavily into music and computers, those forums are probably their primary online music communities.

That's not to say there isn't value for having a space for it here, I'm just trying to think of why MeFiMu might be kind of a middle child.

I don't know what pathways there are for publicizing MeFiMu within the MeFi world without violating guidelines, but if there are ways to increase awareness I think that would help.

How about some kind of challenge for the non-musically inclined MeFi members to participate in, or to contribute to in some way? Or perhaps creating a rotating panel of non-musician MeFites to "judge" the results of a chalenge and issue some kind of silly award?

For the record, I've only been marginally aware of MeFiMu, but I've been having musical cabin fever and I am looking for outlets. I'll participate in the next challenge, and if I can muster the courage I'll post something of mine when I get home.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 12:32 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Ooh, uncleozzy's post above triggered a challenge idea - a challenge where participants upload something they started but did not complete for an earlier challenge for someone else to finish off.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 12:34 PM on June 6, 2013

Or perhaps creating a rotating panel of non-musician MeFites to "judge" the results of a chalenge and issue some kind of silly award?

I'm a little bit leery of this - based on the MetaTalk thread, some of the lack of participation comes from people feeling inadequate... Creating "winners" seems like a way to exacerbate that.
posted by dubold at 12:40 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Has MeMu done many collaborative challenges? I actually think those can be really fun and unexpected, and they take a little of the pressure off "must have an entire thing end to end done myself." Community is one of MeFi's main strengths so it makes sense to make use of it in as many ways as possible IMHO. But I'm not a MeMu contributor (yet!) so it's really not my call.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:21 PM on June 6, 2013

a challenge where participants upload something they started but did not complete for an earlier challenge for someone else to finish off.

Okay so it's not a challenge yet, but done and done.
posted by uncleozzy at 3:16 PM on June 6, 2013

I just started doing music again last week, and came here a while to see if the challenge was something I could do, and there was no new challenge... so, yeah, the lack of updating is a problem. Eventually I found the post in here where someone suggested doing a modern song in a vintage style as the May challenge -- I would have loved that, I think. But it never was official, I guess.

I posted something I did for another group, but I haven't really gotten any comments in ages on things I've posted here (which, until last week, were all from my archives, but still...), so I am less and less motivated. (I'm not necessarily looking for critiques, or pats on the back -- just some indication that I am not posting into the void.) However, I don't comment often on others' posts, so I am guilty too.

The comment above made me sad: "those absurd charts full of self-referential novelty songs and fucking ukuleles and what-have-you..." I think people are going to be less likely to participate if they know they are being judged that way. If I were to get a ukelele I would hope it would be welcome here!

Anyway, if there are new challenges, I might participate. But I guess it's just wait and see for now. I love this part of Metafilter even if I've rarely spoken up in it.
posted by litlnemo at 6:04 PM on June 8, 2013

And now that I look I see I did get a comment or two on a couple of semi-recent posts, so when I said "haven't really gotten any comments in ages" that wasn't strictly true. But it does feel that the response level has gone way down since the stuff I posted 6 or 7 years ago.
posted by litlnemo at 6:08 PM on June 8, 2013

I had a few problems with the Radiohead challenge last year in that the original MetaTalk post created a sense of urgency and structure in saying "Get your challenge done by the end of the month, here are your songs". It started out really well, with lots of good tunes being posted. Then, as the challenge went on rather successfully we said, "screw it, let's keep going another month, do whatever you want" until it petered out. There was no big payoff moment for people who actually met the challenge to celebrate the music community. Also, the screw the rules this doesn't really matter anyway attitude made me less inclined to bother with challenges in the future.
posted by dobie at 10:39 AM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

I tend to agree with what dobie says just above. Of course anyone should feel free to submit a Challenge track after a deadline has passed, cause the more music the merrier, as far as I'm concerned. But the actual *challenge* aspect of the thing is getting lost, I think.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:03 PM on June 12, 2013

I agree with Dobie as well. But there's a Catch 22 aspect to it.

1. There's a lot of resistance, MeFi being what it is, to making the challenge 'competitive' in even the most trivial way (e.g. the song someone found most 'interesting'). That tends to make formalizing it very difficult because actually there's nothing to 'win' or 'lose'.

2. The reason for getting loosey goosey tends to be trying to encourage participation. Month to month participation in the challenge is low enough that adding formal conditions could quite likely kill it dead some months.

Both of these are related to the relative invisibility of Music in the MeFi pantheon.

If we could offer a prize, even a nominal one, I think that would help.
posted by unSane at 7:31 PM on June 12, 2013

It doesn't have to be competitive though, just has to take itself seriously so that the rules are the rules so this doesn't have to happen.

Nobody needs to compete against each other, they just compete against the constraints. Some months we can have arbitrarily hard constraints and that should be fine if people do or don't meet the deadline. It seems like the summer months are conducive to the big populist challenges (though I'm having a hard time getting jazzed about Bowie) and that's good because it is the start of a tradition.

An example prize could be: if you meet the constraints your work gets featured on the sidebar of metafilter music for a few days the following month. With a prize like this you reward participation with recognition, thus rewarding the community.
posted by dobie at 8:04 PM on June 12, 2013 [3 favorites]

The summer months are always hard because people have lots of other things to do. The songwriters' circle and the little concert series I'm part of both take sabbaticals in July and August, and it's a toss up whether anyone even comes in June (weather dependent).
posted by unSane at 9:23 PM on June 12, 2013

I think the problem with extending the challenges indefinitely is that it prevents there being a tidy wrap-up to the event. I like a summary of things, so that I can see who participated, listen to the tracks, etc.

I am really, really opposed to the challenges, or Music in general, becoming competitive in the sense of creating winners and losers. As in I will probably bow out completely or at least take a lot less interest in the proceedings if that happens.

However, I completely agree with dobie that pitting oneself against the constraints is the interesting bit, and I do think it's useful for the challenge to be internally consistent. Especially for the benefit of participants who do their best to create something within the time-frame; feeling like the rules are changing partway through the process devalues adherence to the guidelines, at least for me.

I like the idea of rewarding participants with recognition. The only way I see that becoming an issue is if there were consistently 50+ entrants.
posted by dubold at 4:52 AM on June 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

I like the idea of rewarding participants with recognition. The only way I see that becoming an issue is if there were consistently 50+ entrants.

Hey ho, cut off my sentence by accident. That should say "If there were consistently 50+ entrants, and putting them all on the sidebar cluttered things up."

Just as a side note: we currently have 25 entrants for the challenge. I'm thrilled about that, and I am really excited to have had requests to join up from people who either don't post much to Music, or haven't posted much in the last year or so. It's an excellent thing. And there have been multiple people who signed up after the first round of drawings.
posted by dubold at 4:58 AM on June 13, 2013

50+ entrants sounds like a good problem to have right now. There will always be a sizeable portion of entrants dont complete due to life and whatever other distractions come--- ooh shiny...

On another note, you could use completion rate as a metric of how compelling a challenge was.
posted by dobie at 8:28 AM on June 13, 2013

Not writing this to be deliberately provocative, but there seems to be a sort of taboo subject - an elephant in the room, as it were - when it comes to discussions about mefi music. In a word - quality. Mefimu is the equivalent of a bouncy castle - i.e. anyone can have a go if they pay the admission fee. That's fine. One obvious issue though is that although those doing the bouncing are having a whale of a time those watching/listening aren't necessarily going to have the same experience. long as there's no quality control I suspect it's always going to struggle to capture a consistent audience. As I said, that's not a judgement but merely an observation. And it's a more articulate expression of what I said up thread about ukuleles etc which regrettably saddened someone. However, I still think ukuleles are horrid :-))
posted by Hoops McCann at 9:08 AM on June 14, 2013

Be the change you wish to see in MeFiMu.
posted by unSane at 10:10 AM on June 14, 2013

I agree to a point Hoops. Quality is important as long as it doesn't come at the expense of community. I don't think it suits metafilter to be too exclusive. Quality is really subjective with music and there are other sites (probably) that are better suited to curating and/or eviscerating submissions.

Music seems like the least regulated of the metafilter channels and I think that might be one of the reasons that the quality is inconsistent. We never delete posts. We never lock threads. If we could experiment with a limit on posts to, say, once a week like we do in nearly every other channel that might limit the deluge of Ukulele Odysseys that are haunting you so. Plus it would make posters think a bit more about whether or not this is the one they want to upload that week.
posted by dobie at 10:15 AM on June 14, 2013

MeFiMu has a lot in common with similar forums, in that a lot gets posted and not much gets listened to. I'm not sure the one-a-week thing would make any difference, since it's more that there are a lot of posters and few listeners, rather than people spamming.

I don't really buy the quality issue. With respect I think Hoops is mistaking his taste for quality to be honest. The quality here is at least on a par with if not better than elsewhere, and it has a lot more variety.

The fundamental issue is that we are mostly producers of music more than consumers of music.

Other sites have solved this in creative ways. SongFight, for example, does a great job of getting people involved in the voting process. Yes, it's competitive, but in an entirely community-driven way.

Whatever form the challenge takes in the future and whoever takes it on, I think the two proposals that will make the most difference will be

- an announcement and wrap up thread (possibly the same thread?) in MeTa each month
- sidebarring of the challenge entries (in a player, say) at the end of the month

Maybe we could also lobby for the challenge to be regularly featured in the podcast as a Thing.
posted by unSane at 10:34 AM on June 14, 2013 [3 favorites]

an announcement and wrap up thread (possibly the same thread?) in MeTa each month

I think this is the best idea. I think not the same thread, though, unless maybe it's a wrap up of the last one + announcement of the new one (and I'm not sold on that).

The other ideas -- sidebar, podcast -- require ongoing mod assisstance, which I don't think can be counted on to happen. (I note that the "Updated!" link is still stuck on April.)
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 7:34 PM on June 14, 2013

People can nudge me about the sidebar and I can do it. Getting mention on the podcast is a little more challenging. We're getting better at doing them regularly at the beginning of the month but sometimes we pick music in advance and sometimes not. A notification or a nudge at the end of the month to mention something would probably be something cortex or I could do.
posted by jessamyn at 7:42 PM on June 14, 2013

What kind of data do you guys have on listeners? I'm just curious because I have no insight into how much things get played. I remember way back in the day we had a play count thing but I recall it was buggy or something.
posted by dobie at 7:57 PM on June 14, 2013

That's a question for cortex or pb, I really don't know, but feel free to email the contact form and I can make sure they see it.
posted by jessamyn at 8:00 PM on June 14, 2013

Just sent a message jessamyn. Not really sure the questions I should be asking at this point so I just asked for a data extract of whatever they have related to events.
posted by dobie at 12:08 AM on June 15, 2013

The ability to manage our own catalogue (rather than the slightly pompous "curate" - what is this for chrissakes, MOMA?!) would be a real and pretty simple improvement. I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing I could withdraw something that I subsequently felt was poor or unrepresentative. It would be quite a good discipline - and hey maybe this is the answer to the quality issue - if we were only allowed to have, say, ten tracks "live" on the site at any one time? The ability to manage our own work should also extent to not having tracks podcast without author consent. That's happened to me twice lately and both tracks suck. Sounds ungrateful I know, but it would be nice to be asked....for the reasons stated.
posted by Hoops McCann at 9:50 AM on June 15, 2013

Hoops, I requested the very feature you're suggesting (possibility of pulling music posts) a while back in a MetaTalk thread, and the idea was, shall we say, not well received. People who never set FOOT here at MeFiMu swarmed in and shot the idea down in droves, as I recall. It clearly wasn't going to happen, and that's why I post tracks here less often than I once did.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 10:08 AM on June 15, 2013

Here's the MeTa thread I'm talking about. Scanning it now, I see that there were actually more positive responses (people agreeing with the idea) than I'd thought. It's disappointing that the mods wouldn't implement it, though.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 10:12 AM on June 15, 2013

If folks want to scoot the mod-input stuff over to the MeTa thread, that would be AOK. I sort of feel like my participation here has blurred the lines of what needs to be in MetaTalk so I'll unfollow that thread and people who want to can follow up there or the contact form.
posted by jessamyn at 10:25 AM on June 15, 2013

If folks want to scoot the mod-input stuff over to the MeTa thread, that would be AOK.

I'm a little confused: what MeTa thread are you referring to, jessamyn?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 10:47 AM on June 15, 2013

This one, Flapjax.
posted by unSane at 5:05 PM on June 15, 2013

Deleting tracks isn't a problem on other websites. What precisely is the issue for Metafilter? Is it technical? Or is it philosophical (in the sense that music posts are regarded in the same light as all other posts, and therefore there's no case for special treatment)?
posted by Hoops McCann at 12:03 AM on June 16, 2013

Seems philosophical, look at the MeTa thread that Flapjax posted. Cortex has a long explanation.
posted by dobie at 8:53 AM on June 16, 2013

I hadn't realised the thread flapjax referred to was that old - I contributed to it in my previous guise as major Dundee. Reading it now I feel, as I did then, that the moderators' reasoning is unpersuasive. If they're that precious about the music sub-site ("as a resource and archive and long-term community memory" - aawww tha's nice innit) maybe they should put more effort into promoting/supporting it. A good start would be to make some of the changes requested for the last few years rather than basically stonewalling them. Personally I'll follow the flapjax line and be more careful about what I post here.
posted by Hoops McCann at 9:52 AM on June 16, 2013

So is some broad-shouldered hunk(ess) going to step forward and take over the running of the challenge? I think I'm done with running it, to be honest.
posted by unSane at 7:13 AM on June 19, 2013

You had a great run unSane and don't feel bad about feeling a little burnt out. It isn't easy to keep up interest and participation considering the varied interests here. I'm sure flapjax will agree with me on that.

In any case I nominate Karlos the Jackal. He showed a great deal of interest when I suddenly needed a replacement after my little tour of duty.

Karlos? Anyone second the motion?
posted by snsranch at 6:10 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]

posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:17 PM on June 19, 2013 [2 favorites]

If Karlos wants a co-pilot, or isn't up for it, I'd be up for having a go!
posted by greenish at 1:57 AM on June 20, 2013 [1 favorite]

I am flattered and would like to give it a go at some point in the future but right now I am busy and sad through September at least.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 12:44 AM on June 21, 2013

*hugs for sad comrades*
posted by greenish at 2:11 AM on June 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

I didn't mean to wreck the party!

In the interest of not letting things lie around unresolved, here's my suggestion:

1) The Bowie challenge stays as the only challenge until September 1, to allow the next showrunner time to get his or her ducks in a row.

2) The "Updated!" link on the front page of Music gets updated to reflect this. Someone will have to determine the specific tag that's used ("ziggystardust"?).

2a) As soon as a couple of people say "OK" I'll contact cortex to do that thing.

3) Greenish -- assuming continued interest and no dissent from others -- takes over and posts a new challenge on September 1.

3a) By "dissent" I mean here and now in this very thread. August 29 is too late for someone to come along and complain that but but but I wanted to do it all along

3b) Greenish will be in charge of contacting cortex every month to keep the "Updated!" link updated.

posted by Karlos the Jackal at 4:14 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

posted by snsranch at 4:26 PM on June 25, 2013

Sounds great!

Good luck, Greenish -- we're all counting on you.

And thank you.
posted by unSane at 7:48 PM on June 25, 2013

One thing to think about is tag-teaming it a bit so it's not all on one person. For example, there seemed to be a consensus that there should be a MeTa post to go with the challenge, and maybe one to wrap it up, but it adds up to quite a bit of work (speaking from experience, I usually posted the challenge at the last moment amid time constraints so doing the whole MeTa thing was unlikely -- but if someone was better organized I guess.... -- but a Challenge Assistant might not be a bad thing to have if anyone's constitutionally disposed)
posted by unSane at 9:23 PM on June 25, 2013

Hell's bells... Well, ok then! I'll try and do you all proud!

I reckon Karlos and I can handle it for the time being, and unSane, if we're ok to ask your advice if anything comes up, I reckon it'll go fine.

So... here's a suggestion for the Sept 1 challenge. dubold and I have been talking about getting the idea of a song request raffle up and running, so how about using the Sept challenge as a sort of trial run for that?

The idea being I will post in MetaTalk along the lines of, you are cordially invited over to MeFiMu where we would like your requests in [this thread] for the music challenge, which will then be allocated at random to any interested MuFites. If it's popular, we'll make it either ongoing or an annual thing.

What do y'alls think?
posted by greenish at 2:08 AM on June 26, 2013 [3 favorites]

That's a great idea, especially as a way to get some community involvement in the rebooted challenge!
posted by unSane at 4:04 AM on June 26, 2013

greenish, you're looking good already. As an early High Exalted Overlord Of The Challenge, you have my blessing and Official Anointment. Go now, my child, and make the Challenge RING!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:29 AM on June 26, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, that looks good to me too.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 2:45 PM on June 26, 2013

I MeMailed cortex a few days ago but got no reply and the challenge page still isn't updated. I'll do a general mod contact; I assume other mods have the ability to take care of it.

Now that I'm looking at that page again, I'll mention that the unSane contact link should be switched to greenish, too.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 6:25 PM on June 28, 2013

Yay, it's updated!
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 7:56 PM on June 28, 2013

Gosh, how exciting. Thanks Karlos.

Glad you're all into the idea for the next challenge, I'll get right on it. In the meantime, time to get busy with Bowie, yay!
posted by greenish at 4:24 AM on July 1, 2013

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