Can you be innovative using an archaic banjo style?
August 3, 2008 11:45 PM
I am a Clawhammer banjo player. I have a love for the old time style, but not necessarily old time music, I have been trying to apply the banjo to genres where the 5 string isn't typically found.
Aside from my Hip Hop and Heavy Metal contributions to the black, I am also a frustrated banjo player. I desperately love banjo and enjoy playing loads, but have a lust for creating music that I haven't heard before. I want to take the banjo, specifically the old mountain style, and make it new. I've been trying with varying degrees of awful to write old style songs but put them into noise/electronic compositions. I've been working with a cello player in an attempt to write minimalist chamber folk.
To date, by far the most interesting and innovative use of clawhammer banjo I have heard comes from Abigail Washburn and the Sparrow Quartet although her banjo is often overpowered by the 3 finger classical picking of Bela Fleck.
I don't know if there are any other frailers here, but if there are please give some input. Do you just play the old fiddle tunes? Do you try to write your own tunes? Do you do something entirely different? I want to make interesting music that is reminiscent of the old time, but firmly planted in the modern age.
posted by mediocre (19 comments total)
1 user marked this as a favorite
Aside from my Hip Hop and Heavy Metal contributions to the black, I am also a frustrated banjo player. I desperately love banjo and enjoy playing loads, but have a lust for creating music that I haven't heard before. I want to take the banjo, specifically the old mountain style, and make it new. I've been trying with varying degrees of awful to write old style songs but put them into noise/electronic compositions. I've been working with a cello player in an attempt to write minimalist chamber folk.
To date, by far the most interesting and innovative use of clawhammer banjo I have heard comes from Abigail Washburn and the Sparrow Quartet although her banjo is often overpowered by the 3 finger classical picking of Bela Fleck.
I don't know if there are any other frailers here, but if there are please give some input. Do you just play the old fiddle tunes? Do you try to write your own tunes? Do you do something entirely different? I want to make interesting music that is reminiscent of the old time, but firmly planted in the modern age.
I can't tell you the nuts and bolts of how, but I'd say the answer is a resounding yes! It just might be something you'll have to forge for yourself. There's a cavaquinho player (brazilian uke) named Fred 04 who insisted on taking the instrument out of strict samba and playing music influenced by the clash and jorge ben, but still using old playing techniques. There is some really interesting music that results from this sort of challenge you describe. Just keep at it, and you'll find something that works.
Hmmm. That probably wasn't helpful if you wanted something more specific.
posted by umbú at 12:27 AM on August 4, 2008
Hmmm. That probably wasn't helpful if you wanted something more specific.
posted by umbú at 12:27 AM on August 4, 2008
Well, as a longtime clawhammerin' frailer myself*, I'd say Grangousier's comment on tunings is one to definitely consider. The thing is, clawhammer is essentially a rhythmic style, right? That's my understanding, anyway. You've got that basic, characteristic thumb/fingers interplay going on, and some variations, of course, within the basic frailing method, but there's, I suppose, not a whole lot of rhythmic areas to go into and still be clawhammer style, no? So, back to the tuning. I'd mess around with all sorts of different tunings, if I were you.
There's always effects to consider, as well.
And I'd mess around with prepared banjo, if I were you. Stick clothespins and paper clips on the strings. Slide paper and aluminum foil between the strings and the fretboard, or between the strings and the banjo skin. You could probably come up with all kinds of interesting percussion sounds, utterly different timbres. And depending on how you prepare the banjo, the same basic clawhammer rhythmic patterns could result in widely varying rhythms, actually.
Though he's not (as far as I know) a clawhammer style player, you might find this fellow's work with the banjo to be of some interest and/or inspiration. And he's big on the prepared thing. Paul Metzger.
* that's a joke only mediocre will get
posted by flapjax at midnite at 1:39 AM on August 4, 2008
There's always effects to consider, as well.
And I'd mess around with prepared banjo, if I were you. Stick clothespins and paper clips on the strings. Slide paper and aluminum foil between the strings and the fretboard, or between the strings and the banjo skin. You could probably come up with all kinds of interesting percussion sounds, utterly different timbres. And depending on how you prepare the banjo, the same basic clawhammer rhythmic patterns could result in widely varying rhythms, actually.
Though he's not (as far as I know) a clawhammer style player, you might find this fellow's work with the banjo to be of some interest and/or inspiration. And he's big on the prepared thing. Paul Metzger.
* that's a joke only mediocre will get
posted by flapjax at midnite at 1:39 AM on August 4, 2008
Another guy to check out is my buddy Eugene Chadbourne. He's nothing if not innovative. He's pretty much a law unto himself, actually. He's a serious banjo player, and quite the banjo authority, as well.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 1:43 AM on August 4, 2008
posted by flapjax at midnite at 1:43 AM on August 4, 2008
Banjo appearances, outside of the world of country/bluegrass, always seems to be for ironic emphasis. When a song has to build from simple to complex, someone (presumably the producer,) always says "...And bring up the comedy banjo for the last verse"
The only example I can think of is, sadly, "The Entertainer" by Billy Joel. (I know, I know, enough with the Billy Joel references.)
However, the song that leaps to mind if we're talking about innovative uses has to be this 'un.
posted by Jofus at 5:24 AM on August 4, 2008
The only example I can think of is, sadly, "The Entertainer" by Billy Joel. (I know, I know, enough with the Billy Joel references.)
However, the song that leaps to mind if we're talking about innovative uses has to be this 'un.
posted by Jofus at 5:24 AM on August 4, 2008
I've never developed a formal enough style to be able to claim to be either a clawhammer or a three-finger player—I kind of think of my banjo style as slow-three-finger with a clawhammer fallback when I get excited, I guess, but it's nothing I'd swear to in court.
Which is all kind of a prologue to clarify that I don't really know from traditional banjo choices; I started out with bluegrass because that's the environment in which I became a banjo owner, but I've never been great with picking out fast clean lines and I prefer improvisation over rote memorization. So I pretty much wing it in context.
I've been playing banjo in a band for a couple years now in sort of a fit-whatever-works-in style; the band was pretty eclectic when I came to it, so I've been mixing in with synths and drums in decidedly non-roots, non-country contexts, and it's given me a chance to figure out what you can do with a banjo besides play what people normally play on a banjo when I hear it.
One thing I enjoy doing with it is actually playing fairly spare arpeggiated stuff, just a couple notes a bar sometimes, to where it becomes more flavor and less fundamentally percussive the way clawing or a motoring three-finger roll tends to be. The banjo usually seems to be a propping-things-up instrument in a lot of mixes, so it's nice to find ways to invert that and make other parts handle that percussion-and-fill role so the banjo can be this melodic thing or a sort of around-the-edges character in a song.
Pairing banjo with a powerful percussion track seems like a fun angle to explore—either making the banjo play a non-percussive role or have it tie in tight with the rhythm section in an unusual context.
posted by cortex at 12:55 PM on August 4, 2008
Which is all kind of a prologue to clarify that I don't really know from traditional banjo choices; I started out with bluegrass because that's the environment in which I became a banjo owner, but I've never been great with picking out fast clean lines and I prefer improvisation over rote memorization. So I pretty much wing it in context.
I've been playing banjo in a band for a couple years now in sort of a fit-whatever-works-in style; the band was pretty eclectic when I came to it, so I've been mixing in with synths and drums in decidedly non-roots, non-country contexts, and it's given me a chance to figure out what you can do with a banjo besides play what people normally play on a banjo when I hear it.
One thing I enjoy doing with it is actually playing fairly spare arpeggiated stuff, just a couple notes a bar sometimes, to where it becomes more flavor and less fundamentally percussive the way clawing or a motoring three-finger roll tends to be. The banjo usually seems to be a propping-things-up instrument in a lot of mixes, so it's nice to find ways to invert that and make other parts handle that percussion-and-fill role so the banjo can be this melodic thing or a sort of around-the-edges character in a song.
Pairing banjo with a powerful percussion track seems like a fun angle to explore—either making the banjo play a non-percussive role or have it tie in tight with the rhythm section in an unusual context.
posted by cortex at 12:55 PM on August 4, 2008
...actually playing fairly spare arpeggiated stuff, just a couple notes a bar sometimes, to where it becomes more flavor and less fundamentally percussive...
This is way cool and raises you further in my estimation as a musician, cortex. I've found, over the years, that getting musicians to play ultra-simple, minimal ("just a couple notes a bar") parts is no mean task. I almost always want less, and I gotta say, most players just ain't wired like that.
If we lived in the same town, I think I'd try to start a band with you.
Except, of course, I have this feeling you don't really care for my music all that much, but... I'd buy the beer!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:36 PM on August 4, 2008
This is way cool and raises you further in my estimation as a musician, cortex. I've found, over the years, that getting musicians to play ultra-simple, minimal ("just a couple notes a bar") parts is no mean task. I almost always want less, and I gotta say, most players just ain't wired like that.
If we lived in the same town, I think I'd try to start a band with you.
Except, of course, I have this feeling you don't really care for my music all that much, but... I'd buy the beer!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:36 PM on August 4, 2008
As a half-ass banjo picker I think about this a LOT. Even with guys like Bela Fleck running around, I feel really sure that the banjo deserves MUCH more exploration.
The banjo is such an expressive instrument in so many ways, it's kind of intimidating thinking about how to expand it's horizons.
For me, and I know this may sound stupid, I would take it into the American Jazz realm. Not ole timey fun jazz, but straight up, "I've got my hands dirty jazz" and throw it against some Coltrane or Miles Davis. I haven't done it yet, but what I imagine is that looseness would be in the notes and the tightness would be in it's percussion and it would definitely eff people right up. Forgive me for not being helpful, but please continue on in this direction!
flapjax & cortex, I haven't been invited, but I'll bring beer AND Pizza! (And STFU while you play!)
posted by snsranch at 7:45 PM on August 4, 2008
The banjo is such an expressive instrument in so many ways, it's kind of intimidating thinking about how to expand it's horizons.
For me, and I know this may sound stupid, I would take it into the American Jazz realm. Not ole timey fun jazz, but straight up, "I've got my hands dirty jazz" and throw it against some Coltrane or Miles Davis. I haven't done it yet, but what I imagine is that looseness would be in the notes and the tightness would be in it's percussion and it would definitely eff people right up. Forgive me for not being helpful, but please continue on in this direction!
flapjax & cortex, I haven't been invited, but I'll bring beer AND Pizza! (And STFU while you play!)
posted by snsranch at 7:45 PM on August 4, 2008
flapjax & cortex, I haven't been invited...
jaxtex ranch! The new trio!
But there's GOTTA be anchovies on that pizza, or fuggidaboudit.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:56 PM on August 4, 2008
jaxtex ranch! The new trio!
But there's GOTTA be anchovies on that pizza, or fuggidaboudit.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:56 PM on August 4, 2008
My mom plays banjo*, and once I came home for winter break and she was playing bach two-part inventions on it. She looked up and said "It sounds just like a harpsichord, doncha think?"
Maybe you should go in a 1960s psychedelic chamber pop direction.
*She started playing at the age of 57. She had a stubborn wart on her thumb, and for some reason made a pledge to herself that when she succeeded in getting rid of it, she would buy a banjo and learn clawhammer.
posted by umbú at 9:10 PM on August 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
Maybe you should go in a 1960s psychedelic chamber pop direction.
*She started playing at the age of 57. She had a stubborn wart on her thumb, and for some reason made a pledge to herself that when she succeeded in getting rid of it, she would buy a banjo and learn clawhammer.
posted by umbú at 9:10 PM on August 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
I scratch similar banjo itches by messing around with different scales more than different tunings, though I guess they are different routes to the same thing. (I do mess with the drone string pretty often though.)
Consider a mix of cortex and flapjax's advice: you've got your basic clawhammer rhythm and you can't add to or change it much before it stops being clawhammer. But I think you would be surprised how much you can omit, how much open space you can leave, and still maintain the clawhammery feel. If you have a good sense of rhythm (and you probably do if you play clawhammer well), I bet you can use silence like a kick in the face.
posted by No-sword at 5:24 AM on August 5, 2008
Consider a mix of cortex and flapjax's advice: you've got your basic clawhammer rhythm and you can't add to or change it much before it stops being clawhammer. But I think you would be surprised how much you can omit, how much open space you can leave, and still maintain the clawhammery feel. If you have a good sense of rhythm (and you probably do if you play clawhammer well), I bet you can use silence like a kick in the face.
posted by No-sword at 5:24 AM on August 5, 2008
I know nothing about banjo technique, but as for Modern, Innovative Uses for Banjos...artist Sufjan Stevens does some wonderful things with the banjo sound. Look him up, listen around a bit. His banjo usage is always softly integrated in a way that feels not only contemporary, but somehow progressive, and still solidly anchored in a folk tradition.
posted by Milkman Dan at 3:02 PM on August 5, 2008
posted by Milkman Dan at 3:02 PM on August 5, 2008
I used to play banjo in punk band, so I'm pretty sure you can use it in other styles of music ;-)
You must check out Danny Barnes' Folktronics site
Mr. Barnes is pretty into extending the banjo - I've seen him do some amazing stuff with looping live. I also find him to be a lot more appealing playing jazz banjo than Bela Fleck.
I also like to listen to middle eastern music for inspiration, ever since I was told that my banjo (played clawhammer in double C) sounded just like a saz - it did! Saz is neat!
Oud is also neat.
Harlem Banjo by The Elmer Snowden Quartet isn't five string or clawhammer, but it's super fun to listen to, and, at least for me, is a good reminder that I can make things a lot more interesting just by getting out of that I-IV-V structure that is engraved on my brain.
Lastly, get some compilations and dig into those old fiddle tunes. Some of them are... weird. Crooked and weird and in strange tunings. You might like them.
posted by smartyboots at 4:34 PM on August 6, 2008
You must check out Danny Barnes' Folktronics site
Mr. Barnes is pretty into extending the banjo - I've seen him do some amazing stuff with looping live. I also find him to be a lot more appealing playing jazz banjo than Bela Fleck.
I also like to listen to middle eastern music for inspiration, ever since I was told that my banjo (played clawhammer in double C) sounded just like a saz - it did! Saz is neat!
Oud is also neat.
Harlem Banjo by The Elmer Snowden Quartet isn't five string or clawhammer, but it's super fun to listen to, and, at least for me, is a good reminder that I can make things a lot more interesting just by getting out of that I-IV-V structure that is engraved on my brain.
Lastly, get some compilations and dig into those old fiddle tunes. Some of them are... weird. Crooked and weird and in strange tunings. You might like them.
posted by smartyboots at 4:34 PM on August 6, 2008
Maybe you should go in a 1960s psychedelic chamber pop direction.
This is always the right answer.
posted by ludwig_van at 9:03 AM on August 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
This is always the right answer.
posted by ludwig_van at 9:03 AM on August 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
I switched from frailing to bluegrass when I found myself limited on five string banjo. Clawhammer tends to emphasize not just a specific rhythm, but also emphasizes the drone fifth string.
Imagine if a guitarist asked if there were anything else he could do stylistically while Travis picking. It's a self-limiting question. It's the technique, not the instrument.
Other than as a special-effect instrument in electronica, frailing may not go very far from its roots. Consider thinking of other ways to approach the instrument, rather than having other forms approach your style.
...One of these days I'll woodshed Donna Lee on banjo. Tough enough on geetar, though. Although solos might be easier. Hmmm...
posted by lothar at 12:40 PM on August 7, 2008
Imagine if a guitarist asked if there were anything else he could do stylistically while Travis picking. It's a self-limiting question. It's the technique, not the instrument.
Other than as a special-effect instrument in electronica, frailing may not go very far from its roots. Consider thinking of other ways to approach the instrument, rather than having other forms approach your style.
...One of these days I'll woodshed Donna Lee on banjo. Tough enough on geetar, though. Although solos might be easier. Hmmm...
posted by lothar at 12:40 PM on August 7, 2008
One of these days I'll woodshed Donna Lee on banjo.
Well, I dunno... I used to go out with Donna, and she always preferred a nice, soft bed to a banjo. Oh and, sometimes the kitchen table.
I shouldn't say any more.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:08 PM on August 7, 2008
Well, I dunno... I used to go out with Donna, and she always preferred a nice, soft bed to a banjo. Oh and, sometimes the kitchen table.
I shouldn't say any more.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:08 PM on August 7, 2008
Because clawhammer is so rhythmic, you may do well to read up on rhythms outside the standard bum-diggy. I'm thinking crazy latin and african polyrhythms-- six with your thumb against eight with your fingers. You've definitely got the chops already to do some crazy work.
You may also want to consider getting a fretless mountain banjo and experimenting with things outside the 12-tone scale. I'm thinking specifically of arab music. There are many Oud tunes that I think would sound amazing on the fretless banjo. Come to think of it, the turks have an instrument known as a cumbus you might also want to look into. This link might be of great help.
posted by The White Hat at 6:44 PM on August 10, 2008
You may also want to consider getting a fretless mountain banjo and experimenting with things outside the 12-tone scale. I'm thinking specifically of arab music. There are many Oud tunes that I think would sound amazing on the fretless banjo. Come to think of it, the turks have an instrument known as a cumbus you might also want to look into. This link might be of great help.
posted by The White Hat at 6:44 PM on August 10, 2008
Some workshops are online on the tape-friendly etree tracker. They are mostly from grey fox festival. That includes banjo and mandolin stuff from 2008 and 2007.
posted by nicolin at 5:59 AM on August 30, 2008
posted by nicolin at 5:59 AM on August 30, 2008
Stumbled on this thread way late, but I enjoyed this video on switching up the basic bum-ditty clawhammer rhythm.
posted by ctmf at 11:52 AM on December 13, 2009
posted by ctmf at 11:52 AM on December 13, 2009
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5-string banjo has some of the most eccentric tunings anywhere, and I suspect it still has some oddnesses to surprise us.
But the trick is to listen, not to think.
posted by Grangousier at 12:27 AM on August 4, 2008