Even better than the real thing. Or, not.
July 2, 2010 5:57 PM
What's your feeling about amp sims? Here are mine, based on some tests.
I've been using a bunch of amp sims recently. I started out on a Line6 pod many years ago, which I never liked, then bought into Guitar Rig when it came out. That's what I've been playing ever since, but recently had a chance to try out both the Waves and Amplitube systems, as well as the Recabinet impulse responses which you can use to 'sample' different speaker/cabs.
Long story short, I still like Guitar Rig, mostly because it has a very accurate ProCo Rat simulation, which is about 50% of my sound. The Waves stuff is pretty meh, mostly because I can't really tell what the different amps are supposed to be. But the Amplitube stuff is very very good, especially the Fender pack. When combined with Recabinet especially.
Just as a reality check I decided to A/B it against the real thing. I tried playing the same part thru both an emulated Fender Twin and my silverface twin with an SM58 pointed at the cone. Clean and distorted thru a Rat and the Amplitube Rat clone.
Result -- pretty much nothing between them when played clean, except when I played through my Fender outboard reverb tank, which none of the sims come close to emulating. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to tell you which was the sim and which was the amp, except from the hum.
Distorted, it was a different story. My dirty sound is basically the RAT played through the twin fairly clean. Both Guitar Rig and Amplitube do a pretty darn good impersonation of it, but the real thing really was a lot smoother with a lot more thump in the bottom for muted chords.
I was fairly surprised by this as I've been reliant on the sims for recording for the last five years or more. I'm not sure in a big mix whether you would really spot the difference, but if the guitar was solo or heavily featured, I think you'd definitely hear it.
Sort of tempted to do some more anal A/Bing using a recording and some proper re-amping. Has anyone else tried anything like this?
I didn't try anything with the 335 or the 12-string but it makes me want to.
posted by unSane (19 comments total)
I've been using a bunch of amp sims recently. I started out on a Line6 pod many years ago, which I never liked, then bought into Guitar Rig when it came out. That's what I've been playing ever since, but recently had a chance to try out both the Waves and Amplitube systems, as well as the Recabinet impulse responses which you can use to 'sample' different speaker/cabs.
Long story short, I still like Guitar Rig, mostly because it has a very accurate ProCo Rat simulation, which is about 50% of my sound. The Waves stuff is pretty meh, mostly because I can't really tell what the different amps are supposed to be. But the Amplitube stuff is very very good, especially the Fender pack. When combined with Recabinet especially.
Just as a reality check I decided to A/B it against the real thing. I tried playing the same part thru both an emulated Fender Twin and my silverface twin with an SM58 pointed at the cone. Clean and distorted thru a Rat and the Amplitube Rat clone.
Result -- pretty much nothing between them when played clean, except when I played through my Fender outboard reverb tank, which none of the sims come close to emulating. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to tell you which was the sim and which was the amp, except from the hum.
Distorted, it was a different story. My dirty sound is basically the RAT played through the twin fairly clean. Both Guitar Rig and Amplitube do a pretty darn good impersonation of it, but the real thing really was a lot smoother with a lot more thump in the bottom for muted chords.
I was fairly surprised by this as I've been reliant on the sims for recording for the last five years or more. I'm not sure in a big mix whether you would really spot the difference, but if the guitar was solo or heavily featured, I think you'd definitely hear it.
Sort of tempted to do some more anal A/Bing using a recording and some proper re-amping. Has anyone else tried anything like this?
I didn't try anything with the 335 or the 12-string but it makes me want to.
One of the things I have learned from using the sims is that although I can, I almost *never* fuck with the original patch I played it through. The only exception to this is reverb: I used to always record with reverb but now I dial it right back and use ambience/early reflections instead, for a much more 'present' sound. However, it's really nice to be able to hear reverb when you're playing.s So the sims are terrific for that... dial in a load of reverb when you're tracking, then totally lose it when you're mixing.
12-string sounds are something I've found very hard to nail with sims. 12-strings are often pretty hot and they love natural amp compression, but you tend to get quite a bit of fizzing when the sims start to break up. The only solution is to compress them, and then you get into that whole Byrds spaceman thing.
posted by unSane at 8:33 PM on July 2, 2010
12-string sounds are something I've found very hard to nail with sims. 12-strings are often pretty hot and they love natural amp compression, but you tend to get quite a bit of fizzing when the sims start to break up. The only solution is to compress them, and then you get into that whole Byrds spaceman thing.
posted by unSane at 8:33 PM on July 2, 2010
Amplitube was the first simulator that made me realize that they actually gave you some pretty amazing sounds. I really like Guitar Rig 2, as well. In addition, I've had a lot of success with using the NI B4 Hammond B3 organ simulator as an effect on guitars and occasionally vocals.
posted by umbú at 1:31 AM on July 3, 2010
posted by umbú at 1:31 AM on July 3, 2010
I used the Boss/Roland COSM thing for a while, it was pretty good all in all. But I'm an unreconstructed amp+mic man at heart and I wanted to get away from using effects other than reverb and compression. sns is right about high volume and nuances - but it's also about movement of air and other subtleties of the valves (tubes). I have a Marshall 50w 2x12 valve combo and a Fender SuperChamp that I use for all electric work. Usually mic'd with an SM57 but sometimes with an AKG C3000s. All through a Focusrite preamp. There's something about using amps that's just more......natural - at least to my ears. I'm pretty lazy though and not all that interested in gear generally, particularly fannying around with computers etc. So no doubt there's loads of plug-ins etc I could use and I'm really missing out! But fuck the plug-ins, what I really, really, really want is a MesaBoogie Lone Star. Only time I've ever used them is in studios and I love the sound of 'em.
posted by MajorDundee at 7:10 AM on July 3, 2010
posted by MajorDundee at 7:10 AM on July 3, 2010
Here's an argument for sims. While, sure, it's a shit mix, I couldn't have done any better with a mic'd amp.
What kind of 12 string are you playing? Acoustic w/ pickup? Electric?
posted by snsranch at 5:54 PM on July 3, 2010
What kind of 12 string are you playing? Acoustic w/ pickup? Electric?
posted by snsranch at 5:54 PM on July 3, 2010
It's a Burns re-issue 12-string. AWESOME guitar, much nicer and easier to play than the Rickenbacker I used to have. I got it for a ridiculous price on clearance from Musician's Friend.
posted by unSane at 7:14 PM on July 3, 2010
posted by unSane at 7:14 PM on July 3, 2010
Yea, that's a beauty man and I'm pretty sure that none of the engineers behind any sims have given a single thought about being accommodating to an instrument like that.
I would stick to playing that one with an amp.
posted by snsranch at 8:48 PM on July 3, 2010
I would stick to playing that one with an amp.
posted by snsranch at 8:48 PM on July 3, 2010
It sounds pretty good through the Fender Twin and AC30 sims. But like with a real amp you have to compress it or it dirties up much too fast. It's one of those instruments that sounds ENORMOUS when you are in the room with the amp, but shrinks down to nothing when you put it in a mix, unless you really do some work on the channel.
Distorted 12-string is sometimes a thing of wonder though.
posted by unSane at 9:08 PM on July 3, 2010
Distorted 12-string is sometimes a thing of wonder though.
posted by unSane at 9:08 PM on July 3, 2010
This is silly because you probably already know this, but have you tried doubling up your clean 12 string tracks?
posted by snsranch at 6:02 PM on July 5, 2010
posted by snsranch at 6:02 PM on July 5, 2010
I double almost everything to be honest! I sometimes double the 12-string single line leads a third apart, which is one of my favourite sounds of all.
posted by unSane at 6:28 PM on July 5, 2010
posted by unSane at 6:28 PM on July 5, 2010
Oh how I envy you who play clean enough and well-planned and -practiced enough parts to effectively record doubles. I enjoy winging it on solo stuff, but it makes for patchy results and impossible doubled tracks.
I haven't spent enough time with a lot of amps or a lot of amp sims to really have strong opinions. My Fender Deville is the only tube amp I've owned and I love it way more than I ever liked my first Peavey transistor amp, and I've got a friend with a much brighter, brasher tube amp that I also like but wouldn't trade for if it came to that, and that's about it there.
And I've got a PodXT that I like well enough but the distortion all sounds a little not-right to me even if it's better (and far more flexible) than the old Peavey was, but for getting slightly different tones going in or for wetter effects like reverb and delay and such it's pretty fun.
I think I tend to get distracted and intimidated by the pile of choices that something like the Pod represents; I can kill a half hour dialing in various presets and fiddling with them, and that's kind of fun in its own right sometimes but I could get a lot of actual recording done in that half-hour if I just picked something that was Good Enough and ran with it. And more and more these days I find myself feeling like guitar -> amp is good enough indeed.
posted by cortex at 8:46 PM on July 5, 2010
I haven't spent enough time with a lot of amps or a lot of amp sims to really have strong opinions. My Fender Deville is the only tube amp I've owned and I love it way more than I ever liked my first Peavey transistor amp, and I've got a friend with a much brighter, brasher tube amp that I also like but wouldn't trade for if it came to that, and that's about it there.
And I've got a PodXT that I like well enough but the distortion all sounds a little not-right to me even if it's better (and far more flexible) than the old Peavey was, but for getting slightly different tones going in or for wetter effects like reverb and delay and such it's pretty fun.
I think I tend to get distracted and intimidated by the pile of choices that something like the Pod represents; I can kill a half hour dialing in various presets and fiddling with them, and that's kind of fun in its own right sometimes but I could get a lot of actual recording done in that half-hour if I just picked something that was Good Enough and ran with it. And more and more these days I find myself feeling like guitar -> amp is good enough indeed.
posted by cortex at 8:46 PM on July 5, 2010
there's nothing stopping you from playing through the RAT and then sending the signal into an amp sim
posted by pyramid termite at 11:21 AM on July 6, 2010
posted by pyramid termite at 11:21 AM on July 6, 2010
Apart from my inherent idleness - which was only part of the reason - the main thing that made me return to guitar -> amp simplicity was that I felt that simulated amps etc tended to hide the actual sound of the guitar. A Strat sounded pretty much like a Les Paul which was kinda the same a Telecaster when using simulations. I guess there were slight differences, but to my ears those hallmark sounds were somehow masked or obscured and you could be playing any guitar really. With an amp - at least in my humble op. - you do actually get the true distinctive sounds of various guitars.
posted by MajorDundee at 2:20 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by MajorDundee at 2:20 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I bought a Tele today on a whim... walked into my local consignment guitar store and plugged it into an amp, clean channel. WHOAH BABY. That got my attention. To the tune of $465!
posted by unSane at 2:45 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by unSane at 2:45 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oh, yeah, and when I got it home I played it through the amp sims -- all or 'em. And it sounded like every other guitar I own. Then I plugged it into the Fender Twin and TELE!
MajorDundee wins the thread.
posted by unSane at 7:29 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
MajorDundee wins the thread.
posted by unSane at 7:29 PM on July 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Fucking amps.
posted by abc123xyzinfinity at 10:25 AM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by abc123xyzinfinity at 10:25 AM on July 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
Fucking amps.
Never tried it. But at my age it is definitely an option.
posted by MajorDundee at 2:02 PM on July 7, 2010
Never tried it. But at my age it is definitely an option.
posted by MajorDundee at 2:02 PM on July 7, 2010
Make sure to hit 'record' first. An SM58 on the cone and a condenser for the room.
posted by unSane at 2:28 PM on July 7, 2010
posted by unSane at 2:28 PM on July 7, 2010
Yeah, I've gone back and forth on modeling too. I've always intended to re-amp my modeled lines, but I've never actually done it. Not to sound too pretentious but that whole concept smacks of artlessness to me.
Right now I feel that nothing compares to making my SG with new strings ring like a bell out of a Fender DeVille with everything set to 5. But I also like a buzzsaw modeled tone that sustains for two minutes; They're all just tools in a toolkit and each can sound shitty/awesome/shittily-awesome in the right context.
posted by dobie at 4:01 PM on July 16, 2010
Right now I feel that nothing compares to making my SG with new strings ring like a bell out of a Fender DeVille with everything set to 5. But I also like a buzzsaw modeled tone that sustains for two minutes; They're all just tools in a toolkit and each can sound shitty/awesome/shittily-awesome in the right context.
posted by dobie at 4:01 PM on July 16, 2010
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I got a couple of guitar lessons in the early '80s from a dude who was a roadie for Ozzy/Randy Rhodes. The first thing he did was plug his beautiful Carvin into my Fender Twin Reverb and turn most of the knobs to 10. While that sounds like some real guitar bravado wankery, which I thought it was at the time, what he was illustrating was the very precise and careful nuances of expression that exist at very high volume.
Those are things that can't be replicated with a sim or emulator.
Otherwise, I think sims really kick ass. My pod xt has been great for the punky shit that I play, and now I don't have to hear from my whiney neighbors.
posted by snsranch at 8:22 PM on July 2, 2010